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Animals and Animal Rights

Started by Salanewt, 22, October, 2009, 07:58:00 PM

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Rolina

...What the hell are you talking about?

QuoteWell, one day, I am sure that everyone will realize how important it is to keep animals alive, but it is sad to think that it might be too late by the time everyone else has this epiphany.

Keeping animals alive?  Really?  I don't think that's your call, boya.  When the time comes for the next Mass Extinction Event (MEE), it's all adapt or die.  If you spent all your resources saving all the fscking whales and lame-@#$% polar bears, then when the time comes, we're fscked ourselves.  There's nothing we can do, because we lack the resources necessary for how human adaptation has evolved.  Thus, unable to adapt to the sudden events brought about by the MME, we become one of the 99% of Ex-species.

SCREW THE ANIMALS, I'll choose the survival of my species over those lesser life forms I prefer to call LUNCH.

Salanewt

To be honest, I would rather risk the life of a human who I do not know than that of an animal. They have done very little, and we are destroying the planet.

Besides, the population of humans used to be in the millions... Now we are in the billions! Besides, adapting to the "next MEE" could be caused by humans or by nature, it is hard to say.

Also, when you say "Screw the animals", you can't forget that WE ARE in the animal kingdom, in the phylum Chordata, Order Mammalia. So, when you say "Screw the animals", you are practically saying to screw humans too, lol. I know that you mean the lower life forms, but we need ot keep them alive because they are what keeps our food chains around.

Besides, if there were no more fish, or no more deer, there would be people who lose jobs. If no more dogs or cats, then there would be none available for training for the blind, or to help fight crime (drug sniffers). What a sad life that would be, if humans were the only members of the animal kingdom left. There would be no lunch unless you become a cannibal.

Have a nice day.
Oh yeah baby, £ me harder.

Fusion is just a cheap tactic to make weak Adepts stronger.

Yoshi's Lighthouse is a hacking website in progress. Why not check it out if you like Yoshi or the Mario & Luigi games?

Rolina

#42
How cute, your argument against me is "but but... you're an animal too!"

NO.  I'm a Race.  There are Animals, which rely primarily on instinct, and are backed up by rational thought...
Then there are Races, which rely primarily on rational thought, and are backed up by instinct.

Basically, an animal's driving force is instinctual.
A Race's driving force is more 'rational', something requiring more complex thought processes.

There's a point, Sala, where a species transcends from an animal species to a race species.  Humans are beyond that point, Sala.  We are ruled by Rational (and sometimes Irrational) thought, and our instincts are VERY OFTEN overruled by those logical thought processes.  Logic and reason trump our survival instincts all the time.  It's what sets us apart - instinct we can just set aside.  Other animals are bound by it.

You can see other primates, which are close to the line.  Chimpanzees in particular are VERY close to crossing the line from animal to race.  When they will is probably several millennia in the future... IF WE LEAVE THEM THE HELL ALONE.  If we try to keep them as chimpanzees, and blame any mutations on human interference, then we're PREVENTING THEIR PROPER EVOLUTION.  We have been meddling too much.  Save the animals?  THAT WILL KILL THEM IN THE LONG RUN.  Adapt or die.  That is the way of natural selection.  The weak genes die out, and the strong ones survive.  If an animal is about to go extinct, it had WEAK GENES.  If it lived, the genes were strong.  By preserving weak animals, we preserve weak genes, an this totally screws up the process of natural selection.

SCREW THE ANIMALS.  Forget them, they can survive on their own (or if they can't, they didn't deserve to).  BILLIONS of years of evolution went into making them lean, mean, survival machines after all!  And those processes are still trying to work properly! If we don't interfere and meddle, if we don't say "save the wales" or "think of the polar bears", then they can properly sort out weak vs strong genes.  But if we actively try to preserve them, we SCREW EVERYTHING UP.

Salanewt

Well, the animals can survive on their own, but human activity which harms them isn't excactly letting the animals help themselves.

Technically, there are even sub-races in species, so humans as a race... I prefer to call them a species.

Besides, I never said to go out of your way to save them (well, maybe I did), but it is better to avoid doing things to harm them to help them. Some of the things that you say do make sense, but they are paired up with other points that do not mix well together. I agree that keeping them in zoos or in labs to prevent them from going extinct is incorrect, but keeping them alive helps them survive. I barely mind if an animal goes extinct (I would rather see a live specimin first), but I do not agree with humans speeding things up. Killing and testing on animals is not good, but to kill to survive? Sure, why not. However, I would only do so if I were forced to.

In the ideal world, we as humans would be pets, and dogs as our owners.

Have a nice day.
Oh yeah baby, £ me harder.

Fusion is just a cheap tactic to make weak Adepts stronger.

Yoshi's Lighthouse is a hacking website in progress. Why not check it out if you like Yoshi or the Mario & Luigi games?

Rolina

Species refers to organisms as a whole.
Animals refers to organisms in the Kingdom Animalia that override reason with instinct.
Races refers to organisms in the Kingdom Animalia that override instinct with reason.

Humans are a species, yes, but we've evolved past simple animals.  Our sentience and complex thought patterns are what proves that we are beyond common animals.

Humans are predators.  If it harms them, it's probably because we're going to consume them (one way or another).  You know, top of the food chain and all.  Also, that testing thing?  That falls under KILL TO SURVIVE for our species.  We're trying to create medicines to cure illness.  But, if we don't test them first, those medicine may kill us instead.  This is REASON hard at work.  However, reason is a fickle mistress.  While reason has allowed us to thrive and bend the world to our will, it has also confused us into thinking that this is OUR planet, rather than we being our planet's species.  This isn't our planet.  We're just this era's primary renters, but Earth kinda owns it, and without warning, we can be given the boot.  However, in our confusion in thinking that this planet is ours, we also foolishly think that the stuff that happens on it is caused by us.  Is a species dying out?  Natural Selection be damned, we're at fault and have to save it!  Polar Bears?  SWIMMING?!  Nevermind that their numbers are on the rise, we're killing them off!  Summer is hot?  Crap, global warming!  Winter is cold?  Crap, climate change!

Doods, seriously.  Chill.  Do you honestly think that our meager 20000 years of human knowledge can trump 5 BILLION years of natural selection?  Really?

Okay, fine, I admit, if we nuke the freaking hell out of everything, we may have fscked up beyond reason, and caused the MEE ourselves.  But that doesn't mean that what we're doing now is fscking everything up.  Climate change is coming?  Don't try to fight it.  Adapt or die.  You didn't kill the polar bears.  Hell, the polar bears seem to love this weather, since THEIR NUMBERS ARE ON THE RISE.  Data doesn't like, peeps.  Listen to the data, not that hypocritical dumbass Gore.  Meat is bad for you and makes you fat?  Well, for starters, we're OMNIVOROUS.  We need a balance of meats, veggies, fruits, etc...  Not eating meat messes up your body chemistry and is actually UNHEALTHY for you if you don't compensate with vitamins and something.  And it's CARBS that make you fat, not Meat.  You know... PLANTS.

Animals have the right to be in my stomach, worn on my back, and drugged until the companies are absolutely sure that the Excedrin I take for headaches won't kill me instead of the headache I took it for.  Oh, and they have the right to struggle to survive, as they have done for BILLIONS OF YEARS.



*reads the humans are subservient to dogs bit*

Oh.  OOOOH.  Now I get it.  You're a PETAphile.  Ewwww.  Shoo shoo, get away from me you sick furry freak.   Take you and your crazy vegan FAIL the heck away from me.  I'll eat deer babies in front of you.  I mean it.  Back, back, foul beast, or Bambi gets it!

Charon

I agree with you as a whole Role, but the only thing that irks me is your stress on the fact that animals work mainly on instinct. It's true that instinct is a large factor in their behaviour (and instinct also plays an important role in ours) but most mammals and birds, and other higher organisms are capable of spontaneous behaviour that is not instinct. Go higher up the line, higher mammals such as dogs and many birds are capable of logic, and higher still, corvids (crows, magpies, jays ect) and primates are capable of solving puzzles by developing new tools, like people do.

Salanewt

Yes. In fact, I remember reading that Chimpanzees are supposedly only 1 or 2% different from humans genetically.

As for what you said about testing medicine Role... I thought you once said that the weak deserve to die for being weak?

Also, this instinct bit makes sense, but Charon is right about some animals using common sense (although an underdeveloped strand of it compared to humans).

This is what I think:

Lowest: No instict (like bacteria, etc.). What happens with them just happens.
Medium-low: Have instinct, but not advanced logic compared to other animals (and Medium-low includes my Math teacher from last year).
Medium: Have some thought process.
Medium-high: Have better logic skills, and are able to solve simpler problems (some slightly more complicated than others).
High: Have better memory skills as well as logic, and are better at problem solving, but they are missing things that make humans what they are.
Top: Humans (or maybe Alien Overlords, hard to say right now, heehee!).

By the way, this is not compared to Humans, because Humans are definitely not that smart for being the smartest living things on Earth, but this is based on a general look at each kingdom other than Fungi or Plant (since they are too off topic here).

As for deer babies Role... Go ahead and eat some Venison. I myself am NOT a Vegan, and I love meat (but how the meat is prepared often is cruel itself). Bambi? Hm... Oh, the Disney Deer. Have not seen that in years, so I don't remember it.

Have a nice day.
Oh yeah baby, £ me harder.

Fusion is just a cheap tactic to make weak Adepts stronger.

Yoshi's Lighthouse is a hacking website in progress. Why not check it out if you like Yoshi or the Mario & Luigi games?

Rolina

Quote from: Charon the Ferryman on 15, November, 2009, 11:06:40 PM
I agree with you as a whole Role, but the only thing that irks me is your stress on the fact that animals work mainly on instinct. It's true that instinct is a large factor in their behaviour (and instinct also plays an important role in ours) but most mammals and birds, and other higher organisms are capable of spontaneous behaviour that is not instinct. Go higher up the line, higher mammals such as dogs and many birds are capable of logic, and higher still, corvids (crows, magpies, jays ect) and primates are capable of solving puzzles by developing new tools, like people do.
Remember the part where I said that many species, such as Chimpanzees, are getting close to the point to where reason takes charge, and will overright instinct?  The reason I said they act mainly by instinct is because at the moment, when instinct kicks in, it'll override reason.  Instead of continuing to solve the problem, they'll act on instinct instead.

However, many are quite close to breaking past that, just as you pointed out.  If we try to keep them as 'chimps', 'corvids', etc... then we're actually HINDERING their evolution.  We need to leave them be.  Then they'll break past Animal and into Race.

@Salanewt:  Actually, that bit about venison was me making fun of your little 'perfect world where dogs rule'.  Either you got that from family guy, or you heard some idiot say it.

Salanewt

Lol. My my, you do easily find where I get my quotes from.  :happy:

Nah, dogs should not actually rule over people, but what I was saying is that if humans treat animals more kindly, then they in return will not be afraid enough of them to try to harm them (of course, what I said before did not even hint at this).

Have a nice day.
Oh yeah baby, £ me harder.

Fusion is just a cheap tactic to make weak Adepts stronger.

Yoshi's Lighthouse is a hacking website in progress. Why not check it out if you like Yoshi or the Mario & Luigi games?

Sajin

Although I don't really agree with you Role, I DO understand what you're saying and you're right to a certain degree...
But leaving them be isn't enough after a lot of species got extinct due to human pollution and exploration. I guess we got to at least help out some animals or else they'll be gone forever and no good can come if species start to disappear because sooner or later that will alter the food chain...

Salanewt

Yes, and if food chains are altered, then you start getting altered ecosystems, and then eventually, things start really messing up.

Think of fit this way:

Seafood for fishing industry. The Coral Reefs are dying, most likely because of humans, so there will eventually be a large loss of habitat for animals. This not only affects the fishing industry, but it could be harder to find creatures (after a while) like oysters for pearls, or Sponges for themselves. On land, more life could die... If there are fewer carnivores, then plantlife is reduced (also vice versa, or any other circumstance). We are sort of talking about the environment now, aren't we?

Oh well, this is Animal Rights, so we can talk about their rights too.

Have a nice day.
Oh yeah baby, £ me harder.

Fusion is just a cheap tactic to make weak Adepts stronger.

Yoshi's Lighthouse is a hacking website in progress. Why not check it out if you like Yoshi or the Mario & Luigi games?

Sajin

You don't need to go that far.
For example, if animal X disappears (due to pollution or/and hunting), animal Y, that eats a lot of animal X daily, would have to change it's diet. In a larger scale, if animals change their diet in a radical way, the ecosystem will collapse some time after.
Also, I recall something that I heard some time ago: if all bees would disappear, human race would also disappear in one year after. But I don't remember where, though.

Salanewt

Well, that would make sense for pollination of plants, but there are other pollinators too (like Butterflies, Hummingbirds, and even some species of flies).

Have a nice day.
Oh yeah baby, £ me harder.

Fusion is just a cheap tactic to make weak Adepts stronger.

Yoshi's Lighthouse is a hacking website in progress. Why not check it out if you like Yoshi or the Mario & Luigi games?

Sajin

I'm sorry, I didn't understand what you meant with that...  :Sweat:

Salanewt

When you said that humans will probably die when bees die. This is probably true, but there are pollinators, which could allow for the survival of some humans.

Have a nice day.
Oh yeah baby, £ me harder.

Fusion is just a cheap tactic to make weak Adepts stronger.

Yoshi's Lighthouse is a hacking website in progress. Why not check it out if you like Yoshi or the Mario & Luigi games?

Sajin

Well, yes but I meant it not as being a pollinator but as a specimen. There are other pollinators but bees seem to have something special I guess...

Salanewt

Makes sense. After all, they form colonies, have much larger concentrated populations, and also make honey.

Have a nice day.
Oh yeah baby, £ me harder.

Fusion is just a cheap tactic to make weak Adepts stronger.

Yoshi's Lighthouse is a hacking website in progress. Why not check it out if you like Yoshi or the Mario & Luigi games?

Sajin

Yes, It's very interesting that bees seem to live in a different way than other animals (although their colonies/population are similar to those of ants).
Also, now that we are talking about bugs, they seem to be forgotten when people talk about them...They have the right to have rights just like any other animal but I guess maybe since they are in such large numbers than there's no need to worry about them? What do you think about this?

Rolina

Quoteif animals change their diet in a radical way, the ecosystem will collapse some time after.

It's that idiot logic that I have a problem with. The ecosystem can survive not one, but at least FIVE MASS EXTINCTION EVENTS.  I'm sure it can survive yet another species going extinct.  Adapt or die, that is the way of nature.  If it only had one source of prey, then perhaps it deserves death after becoming that specialized.  If it cannot adapt, sucks to be it.

FACE IT.  Animals have been forced to radically change their diet several times over the course of evolution.  And the ecosystem still exists, surprise surprise.  Try thinking before you type, 'k?

Salanewt

But, as you said, animals have to adapt. To adapt takes time. If there is not enough time to adapt, then there will indeed be dangerous changes to the environment, and that will cause changes in radical ways. Also, evolution did not happen in a day, and major adaptations can take centuries (which [if not centuries] would probably either be years of increasing populations or decreasing food, so they find other sources of food or migrate). It has only really been a few hundred years since humans became the environment destroyers that we are today.

Take a look at some of the things that humans have invented. Some of the nuclear wastes are extremely toxic to everything, yet they can last for thousands of years before they do not cause any harm.

Yes, we do not have to worry about insects as much (except for the ones that help agriculture in major ways) as much as the others, because of their large populations (and some of which have extremely short life spans). However, it is better not to overdo anything like pesticides (which are, very luckily, starting to be illegalized in Canada).

Role? Our point of view may seem idiotic to you, as yours does to us (at least to me), but that is the lovely thing about a debate (as long as we are clear on this, right?). :happy: As for the amount of mass extinction events, this is true, but it also depends on what they are (Forest Fire: Yes, Nuclear Bomb: probably not for a while) as well as their span.

One thing that I noticed... Many people believe in the right to live. Does this mean that everything has the right to live, or for them to choose what can live?

Have a nice day.

Oh yeah baby, £ me harder.

Fusion is just a cheap tactic to make weak Adepts stronger.

Yoshi's Lighthouse is a hacking website in progress. Why not check it out if you like Yoshi or the Mario & Luigi games?