Isaac in Super Smash Bros Brawl: How would he play?

[leaf]

Uh... you didn't realize this topic was about actually creating a playable isaac in brawl? Really? I thought I made it fairly clear that this is something that is actually happening, and not just a "what if" situation.

As for my own experience with hacking brawl... I can't lay claim to being one of the coders that has laid the groundwork for everything we've become able to do (people like Phantom Wings and Kryal are responsible for that, among many others that have made great contributions), but thanks to the contributions of many, brawl has become one of, if not the most hacked console game in history. Brawl+, although far from solely responsible, was a huge help to foster the development of codes and tools. Where I fit in this is simply as one of the developers of brawl+, which has come so far from when it first began, and could not have gone anywhere without a huge amount of help from some of the brilliant coders responsible for pushing this game to its limits.

Also, note that while I am a part of the brawl+ backroom, this does not mean isaac will be officially included in brawl+. This is a side-project for me and the others who are working on it.

[Salanewt]

I understand. I was aware that this topic was for making a playable Isaac, except that I did not pay attention to the forum which it is in.

Also, I will support you on your side project. It would be nice to have knowledge that making Isaac playable has been done (when the time comes).

Have a nice day.

[Aile~♥]

A way to avoid making area attacks broken is probably to make them slow enough that in order to use them to prevent an enemy attack you have to see the attack coming fairly far ahead. It would probably also help to make the spam penalty on them fairly large. and maybe even to make them fairly weak in the first place.

I know that having Move as a Zair if he gets it as a special would be redundant. I'm just saying that if I were the one designing Isaac, I would not give him Move as a special, but instead as a Zair.

Off-topic: I actually find Snake's DThrow to be fairly useless, because the enemy can get up instantly after you use it, meaning you can't, say, combo it with your FSmash, which looks to me to be what it was designed for, when you consider the aim of the FSmash. You can't combo it with anything else like your dash attack either.

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Well, I'm not going to get too far into balance talk here, but there are plenty of things we can do with a move to prevent it from being broken due to its range. I'm really not that worried about it. I just don't wanna give him guaranteed options off of a techchase, without the player having to guess which way the foe is going to tech.

As for Move... ah, I see.

And if your foe is standing up after getting dthrow'd by snake... just grab them again. Snake can techchase you to death with that move.

[Aile~♥]

I assume "Techchase" refers to grabbing a guy after he gets up and forcing him to get up again, leaving him/her with no way to escape? That would probably be most effective with a move that the enemy can't tech out of. And as for Snake's DThrow, why don't enemies just press A? That would end the combo right there, since pressing A causes you to attack your way up. Strangely enough, I've never had an enemy do that.

[Insularity]

Okay, so time to explain tech chasing and how to make it balanced for Isaac.

Whenever something falls into a tech chase, they have four choices.

1. Roll away (I typed in Role first for something reason?)
2. Roll behind
3. Get up on the spot and attack, or
4. Wait and then do one of the above.

Okay, using Snake as an example for this tech chase, you can do something in almost every situation. If they roll away, you can do a pivot grab into another tech chase, or you can do a dash attack. If they roll behind, you can turn around and grab, or you can use an Fsmash or Ftilt. If they use a get up attack, you can spot dodge into an Ftilt or grab. If they wait, you wait.

Now, let's see Ganon's options. Out of a flame choke, if they go forward, you do another flame choke. If they go behind, turn around and Flame choke. If they do an attack, you spotdodge and flame choke. If they stand still you Dtilt or Dair.

In each of these characters, and in pretty much all characters that can force the opponent into a tech chase, they have one different move for every situation. No single move can be used in two different situations. So if Isaac is able to do an attack that hits even two of these situations, which he is more than likely to do, then that will immediately break any sort of "balance" that Isaac will have.

[Salanewt]

But what if they use a different way to escape than dodging? Those seem like worthwhile tricks to prevent people from escaping, but it might be hard for some characters...

And Isaac probably would be able to break the "balance", although some other characters were able to dodge them in the first place. Looking at the characters that can avoid some of these situations (the attacks of Ganondorf, Snake, Kirby (suction), etc.), you could try to make Isaac a formidable oponent, since his jumping is supposed to stink.

Have a nice day.

[Aile~♥]

The problem is, spotting the attack coming is VERY difficult. When they attack to get up, you're likely to get hit, though it somewhat depends on the character. When Captain Falcon is downed, you're VERY likely to get hit, though for someone like Mario (who uses a double punch thingy that is slower) it's a lot easier to dodge. And also, they can A attack before you finish your throw animation, leaving you with no way to dodge. Snake's DThrow actually leaves him very vulnerable. Of course, Ganondorf doesn't have that problem.

Refresh me here, but isn't a pivot grab an odd glitchy thing where turning around and doing a grab at the same time massively increases your grab range?

I think Gaia should be one of Isaac's slower moves, so the enemy can roll away to avoid it. On the other hand, I assume the only reason DK isn't broken is because he can't force the foe into a tech chase, because if he could then he could just give them the business end of his downB no matter where they try to run. I imagine that with Gaia's range it would probably end up covering all of Battlefield, and thus being extremely broken on that stage.

@Salanewt: What different way than dodging? And that's the exact point is that not every character can force foes into a techchase. That's why many people consider some characters "broken". And Kirby doesn't techchase, he simply chaingrabs his UThrow. Or his Dthrow I think can also be used for a chaingrab.

An idea for Isaac's basic attack: He should use the combo used for "Sonic Smash" style moves in GS: A downwards diagonal attack, followed by a horizontal slash, then a rising slash for the finish.

[Salanewt]

Well, for starters, Yoshi and Squirtle have SideB, which is much faster and a better range than dodging, and Bowser (and Yoshi) have DownB as well. I was talking about dodging Kirby's suction powers (which is easy, but I know that it isn't techcase).


However, this topic is mainly for Isaac, so if we can find it again, should we discuss this elsewhere?

Have a nice day.

[Aile~♥]

Somehow, I don't think you can use Squirtle or Yoshi's sideB when downed, and this is for dodging techchases, not dodging Kirby's suction, though I imagine he could chain you with that. Suck up spit out suck up spit out suck up spit out etc., but that's A) not a techchase and B) can't be continued for very long because it's effectiveness is limited by the size of the stage.

[Salanewt]

True enough. Also, Yoshi can't use Side B when stunned (due to broken shield), but as soon as he gets off of the ground, Yoshi can very quickly get in his egg. I have to play more though.

http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=458.0

Found the topic that I made for pretty much any Brawl discussion.

Have a nice day.

[Aile~♥]

But the point is that by the time you get there, Snake/Ganondorf is already waiting for you and can get you instantly.

[Salanewt]

Yeah, but when he isn't stunned due to a broken shield, he can escape with his Egg Roll.

Anyway, we are a bit off topic now, aren't we?

Have a nice day.

[leaf]

It seems you guys didn't quite understand insul's explanation...

Snake's dthrow gives the opponent a total of four options: get up on the spot, do a getup attack, roll left, and roll right. They also have the fifth option to wait and then do one of those. However, you can't do anything else out of it. I guess snake's dthrow isn't true "techchasing," because you're not chasing a tech, but rather, a getup. Moves that hit an opponent into the ground and hard enough that they have the option of teching (and if they don't tech, will end up laying on the ground, instead of just in their normal landing animation), also give an opponent 4 options in the short term: tech in place, techroll left, techroll right, or don't tech. If they don't tech, they are then given the same four options they have out of snake's dthrow, as well as the ability to wait for a certain amount of time before doing one of them.

Also, in melee, there were characters that could cover multiple options at once (ie. falcon's and ganon's dsmashes). Of course, the real reason falcon's techchasing was so insane was his speed. Still, I'd rather not see characters having options that cover too many of their opponent's options at once during a techchase.

I think Gaia should be one of Isaac's slower moves, so the enemy can roll away to avoid it. On the other hand, I assume the only reason DK isn't broken is because he can't force the foe into a tech chase, because if he could then he could just give them the business end of his downB no matter where they try to run. I imagine that with Gaia's range it would probably end up covering all of Battlefield, and thus being extremely broken on that stage.

Uh... I don't think we were ever planning on giving an attack that hits on both sides much more range than DK's downB. I'm thinking a move like gaia would have somewhere between 15 and 21 frames of startup. Since 15 frames is at about the limit of human choice reaction time, someone with good reactions would be able to see the attack coming and shield or spotdodge it.

I don't really know why I brought up balance concerns here. No offense, but I think insul is the only one who would really know how to address any of them, and I'm fairly confident in our ability to not break the character to begin with... it's just a matter of figuring out how to approach some of this stuff when we get there. A lot of it will just be testing and tweaking until things work right.

Oh, and sala? Egg roll is terrible for escaping anything with. If you're in the air, you're better off using nair, bair, or even dair. If you're standing, you have yoshi's jab combo or dsmash to get people away from you.

[Salanewt]

Well... I use different techniques when playing with Yoshi. I would normally use DownB anyway, but Egg Roll is better on the ground.

No, we understood (well, at least I did), but then the conversation changed somehow.

Have a nice day.

[Insularity]

I don't really know why I brought up balance concerns here. No offense, but I think insul is the only one who would really know how to address any of them, and I'm fairly confident in our ability to not break the character to begin with... it's just a matter of figuring out how to approach some of this stuff when we get there. A lot of it will just be testing and tweaking until things work right.

Umm, thanks, but I really don't think I'm in any position to help balance him, I'm just simply stating some facts.

And can I test it as well?

[leaf]

I don't really know why I brought up balance concerns here. No offense, but I think insul is the only one who would really know how to address any of them, and I'm fairly confident in our ability to not break the character to begin with... it's just a matter of figuring out how to approach some of this stuff when we get there. A lot of it will just be testing and tweaking until things work right.

Umm, thanks, but I really don't think I'm in any position to help balance him, I'm just simply stating some facts.

And can I test it as well?

Well, you demonstrate a better understanding of smash than the others here do, anyway.

And of course you can test! Er... as soon as we have something worth testing. Currently, he just has the blue alloy's animations and hitboxes. We're going to need to rebuild a lot of his animations from scratch.

[Aile~♥]

If I recall correctly blue alloy is Zelda-like? So Isaac = Zelda? Creepy!

I don't exactly know all the fancy smash terms anyway, but I do play Smash fairly often.

[leaf]

Yeah... isaac with zelda's animations. Dtilt looks lol.

[Aile~♥]

No kidding. Why didn't you use the Red Alloy? Would've given you Captain Falcon as a base.

Pawnch!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqnyXj5tjP8