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Author Topic: America vs. Socialism  (Read 11931 times)
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« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2010, 09:14:49 PM »

Sala, did you not see the second half of my post?  The first part was smaking him upside the head for thinking it'd be a black and white issue.  It's not.  The SECOND half is my appropriate reply to his argument.  Do try reading the whole post before replying, okay?
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« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2010, 09:28:38 PM »

I did, and that is what a part of the reply was to (I was replying to your whole post, but I just mixed it up a bit).

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« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2010, 01:03:21 PM »

Anywho, it'd not be a cold war.  It'd be a violent one, since we're known to be the types to kill in order to protect our rights.  A cold war is what results when it's another country, specifically one that hasn't harmed us or tried to rob us of our rights (such as the USSR).  However, if you do harm us, you die (see:  Afganistan).  Of course, that doesn't stop corrupt politicians from totally not listening to us, which is what the problem is at the moment (see: Iraq).  If this escalates to the point that their actions invoke our wrath, however, it will become very violent (see:  American Civil War, American Revolutionary War).

And yes, other countries (see: Iran, North Korea) will be all too happy to try and strike us down the second this starts.  Thus my statement that this is where I see us heading, but it's a very, VERY bad direction to be going at the moment.
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« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2010, 12:19:52 AM »

Hmm, I'll admit I'm a bit tentative in entering into this particular debate as I can see it getting pretty heated but I feel I have to defend moderate socialism here and particularly I need to dissociate it from the USSR.

The dictionary definition of socialism is: "a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole"

Now this encompasses an awful lot of different systems ranging from the mild socialised policies we see in countries like Britain like a state-run and funded National Health System to the authoritarian governments of the USSR and China which use(d) their control over the means of production to exploit and terrorise the population into submission to central authority. Socialism is a very broad and loose term so saying you don't agree with socialism isn't really specific enough as socialist systems are so varied.

As the "socialist" healthcare reforms of Obama are what's been focused on I'll focus on socialised healthcare rather than attempt to tackle socialism as a whole.

First off I highly doubt that Obama intends to enact "socialism" on the scale which some people seem to think he is. In fact if anything his healthcare reforms are pretty moderate if you compare it with similar systems worldwide. For example as I understand it instead of introducing an tax-supported, government-run NHS (National Health Service), similar to the UK NHS, he is proposing using the current insurance system but subsidising low-income citizens to allow those who can't currently afford health insurance to get it. That's not socialism, its weak liberalism at best.

A socialised health system in my view is a good thing. I live in the UK and while our system isn't perfect it does a very good job. We pay via tax for our system instead of by money to insurance companies and in return everyone in the country can go to the doctor and get treated when they are ill. That is an undeniably good thing for everyone to have access to healthcare surely? Where are the evil socialists attacking your rights here? Surely society should try to provide healthcare for everyone? What's wrong with that?

You asked "Name one time.  ANY ONE TIME.  Where government has done a better job than the private sector" - here I would encourage you to look into the healthcare systems of Scandinavian countries particularly which are very good examples of socialised health systems done well. As for sources I have a friend who is doing a degree on social welfare in the UK so I could find some references and studies showing the benefits of the NHS if you really want. However it's a bit rich demanding sources when you haven’t cited a single source yourself.

Socialised systems are on the whole positive attempts to reduce inequality in society by state intervention. Sure you don't get a right to stick your middle finger up at those less fortunate than yourself and limit healthcare to those who can afford it but in my mind that's good - just as you don't have the right to kill people because you don't like them. You get a right to healthcare as and when you need it. Because some people are poorer than others and can't afford expensive treatment it makes sense that society as a whole should pay for it and that those who can afford to pay more should. Limiting some rights to protect others is a part of normal government, the right to kill is taken to protect the right to live and the right to steal is taken to protect the right to hold possessions, in the same way a socialised healthcare system takes away the right to only have to think about your own healthcare to protect the right for everyone to get healthcare no matter what family they are born into or how much they get paid.

Surely that is reasonable? I'm not even going to get into the war in the Middle East where the failures of the "kill everything which disagrees with us" approach to foreign politics are clear.

Please elaborate on just what exactly it is about a socialised system you find so abhorrent.

EDIT: I apologise if this sounds a bit raegy, it's late and I'm tierd. Seriously though I do want to know why socialism scares the US so much. Though please be specific about it. :)
« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 12:34:21 AM by Vorlan » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2010, 12:20:38 PM »

^this.

The United States already has a few socialist policies, such as Medicare and Welfare as well. Honestly I don't think expanding Medicare to the whole population (albeit now would not exactly be the best time in terms of financing).
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« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2010, 05:18:32 PM »

Honestly, I don't see the big deal about Socialism. We already live in a partially socialist government and don't even notice it.
Socialism itself isn't even a bad thing. It's actually more of a fear thing simply because people don't understand how it works.

Now, if we were talking about communism, that would be an entire different story. But it's possible to live in both capitalism and socialism at the same time, as we do here in French Canada. And quite the contrary, I'm a supporter of socialism under the conditions of balance.

Please refer to @Vorlan's wall of text if you need an explanation.


So in conclusion, the fears of Socialism is mostly about being uneducated.
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« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2010, 10:36:47 AM »

Honestly, I don't see the big deal about Socialism. We already live in a partially socialist government and don't even notice it.
Socialism itself isn't even a bad thing. It's actually more of a fear thing simply because people don't understand how it works.

Now, if we were talking about communism, that would be an entire different story. But it's possible to live in both capitalism and socialism at the same time, as we do here in French Canada. And quite the contrary, I'm a supporter of socialism under the conditions of balance.

Please refer to @Vorlan's wall of text if you need an explanation.


So in conclusion, the fears of Socialism is mostly about being uneducated.

Definately! Most of the fear is leftover fear of the left from the cold war and usually has little to do with socialism and a lot to do with communist dictatorships. :)
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« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2010, 12:27:53 PM »

Honestly, I don't see the big deal about Socialism. We already live in a partially socialist government and don't even notice it.
Socialism itself isn't even a bad thing. It's actually more of a fear thing simply because people don't understand how it works.

Now, if we were talking about communism, that would be an entire different story. But it's possible to live in both capitalism and socialism at the same time, as we do here in French Canada. And quite the contrary, I'm a supporter of socialism under the conditions of balance.

Please refer to @Vorlan's wall of text if you need an explanation.


So in conclusion, the fears of Socialism is mostly about being uneducated.

Definately! Most of the fear is leftover fear of the left from the cold war and usually has little to do with socialism and a lot to do with communist dictatorships. :)
A lot of people don't realize that communism =/= socialism, and Glenn Beck isn't helping people figure that out :x

The big reason why people don't like socialism is because these connections are made in propeganda like the majority of FOX news, Teabaggers and other sources. They're a bunch of hypocrites - they support Medicare/aid but not socialized medicine. MEDICARE IS SOCIALIZED MEDICINE.

America deserves an epic facepalm...
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« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2010, 08:48:09 PM »

This discussion scares the crap out of King Dedede:


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« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2010, 10:40:56 PM »

America deserves an epic facepalm...

I could've told ya that, and I don't even bother with any of this stuff.
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« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2010, 07:32:29 PM »

And to all you people saying that Obama thinks he's Jesus, Obama responds thus (Yes, this is a direct quote): "Contrary to popular belief, I was not born in a manger. I was sent in a rocket ship from the planet Krypton, by my father, Jor-El, to save the Earth."
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« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2010, 03:46:00 AM »

Here's another question:  What's wrong with Capitalism?  It's Evolution, but in the economic sense. The strong survive, the weak perish, and society as a whole EVOLVES.  This is what America itself was designed to be, and what made it strong.  However, we've abandoned it.  Socialism doesn't work - Greece is proving that right now.  When most of the jobs are Government run jobs, nothing really gets done.  If you focus more on consumption and don't produce anything, you're doomed.

I agree, Charon.  America deserves and Epic Facepalm.  We really do.  But probably not for the same reason you think.  I think we deserve it because we didn't realize where we were until we were too late.  Socialism and Communism are different, but they're both on the opposite end of the spectrum as were America was SUPPOSED to be.

And now we're almost there.  I'm scared of the future... I really don't know what to expect.  They think that healthcare is a good thing, but nothing you cannot afford is good for you.  I don't care about how good intentioned it was - the greatest atrocities ever committed were done in the name of "good intentions".  I want nothing to do with this... But now I'm thrust into it whether I like it or not.

You say Glenn Beck isn't helping any... but what you don't realize is that he's not saying they're the same, he's saying NEITHER is good for us here in America.  What we had before worked, but we've not been maintaining the machine - rather, we've been eating over it, and now it's got all these crums and gunk inside of it.  America as we knew it is about to break, and it's gonna be a very different place.  A place I dunno if I wanna live in.  No offense, Europe doods, but I don't want anything to do with pansy-arse Europe, and unfortunately for me, that looks to be the direction the US is going... So what next, I wonder?

Because we LOST this battle.  Socialism seems to clearly have won.  Now we have two healthcare systems in america - we already had Medicare/Medicaid, and now we have this... THING.
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« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2010, 12:46:24 PM »

This "thing"? Healthcare guaranteed for 95% of the country? I'm sorry but I can't find it in myself to be particularly sympathetic. As for capitalism the ideology of the strong surviving and the weak perishing being natural doesn't make it moral or right. Sure we could act like animals and let the weak die to feed the strong but that would be barbaric.

Capitalism, unforturnatly is a system which benefits the rich at the expense of the poor. It is a selfish system which institutionalises exploitation in the name of profit. I won't deny it makes nations strong but we don't need more strong nations we need more compassionate ones.

In my view America has taken a big step forward towards taking responsibility for the poverty and corruption which exists within it. The land of the free will now also be the land of the healthy and that is a good thing.

I can understand why this scares you now as it's new, at least for America, and it signals a new direction for the country. But in 25 years when the USA is still free, still independant only more compassionate and tolerant as I hope it will be then I think you'll look back on this in a different way.

Who knows? We'll have to see what happens next.  Happy
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« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2010, 06:47:47 PM »

And...what is socialism then?  If you take away all the money from the rich, then who has the money?

Last I checked, they don't have enough to spread around to everyone.  That leaves nothing but poor people.

If you don't like how nature works, if you think it's barbaric, then go win yourself a darwin award.  Survival of the fittest is the rule of life itself.  If you can't understand that this applies to everything, then evolution dictates that you aren't worth your existence, and will inevitably be purged from it.

Oh, and need I remind you... we already had the option of healthcare.  We have a public option already, it's called Medicare/Medicaid, which, need I remind you, rejects more claims than any other kind of healthcare insurance?  That any insurance company will accept you even IF you have a pre-existing condition, but they'll just charge you more because of how insurance works?  That there's plenty of ways to make health care affordable that weren't looked at, and that the so-called un-cooperative republicans actually tried to cooperate, but were shut out at every turn?  That an amendment they suggested that would have restricted the new bill from taking funds from Medicade, Medicare, and Social Security was REJECTED by the democrats?

...Do you even pay attention to this stuff, or are you just spouting stuff you heard?
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« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2010, 07:04:39 PM »

Quote
We have a public option already, it's called Medicare/Medicaid, which, need I remind you, rejects more claims than any other kind of healthcare insurance?  That any insurance company will accept you even IF you have a pre-existing condition, but they'll just charge you more because of how insurance works?

I'd say REJECTING MORE CLAIMS would be a bad thing?

And not only do they charge you more, as soon as you make a claim, they then find any way they can to reject it.
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