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Author Topic: America vs. Socialism  (Read 11932 times)
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Rolina
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« Reply #30 on: March 30, 2010, 07:20:39 PM »

Do you have actual documentation and proof of this, or are you just going by word of mouth?
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JamietheFlameUser
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« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2010, 08:02:00 PM »

Word of mouth, Youtube vids, vids other places, and yeah. Not much real proof, but so many vids from so many different people can't all be wrong, can they?

That, and I quoted you.
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« Reply #32 on: March 30, 2010, 08:17:21 PM »

...From where?
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« Reply #33 on: March 30, 2010, 08:23:07 PM »

Earlier in same topic.
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« Reply #34 on: March 31, 2010, 04:45:05 AM »

Quote it, please, I can't seem to find the post you're referring to.
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« Reply #35 on: March 31, 2010, 04:52:37 AM »

And...what is socialism then?  If you take away all the money from the rich, then who has the money?

Last I checked, they don't have enough to spread around to everyone.  That leaves nothing but poor people.

If you don't like how nature works, if you think it's barbaric, then go win yourself a darwin award.  Survival of the fittest is the rule of life itself.  If you can't understand that this applies to everything, then evolution dictates that you aren't worth your existence, and will inevitably be purged from it.

Oh, and need I remind you... we already had the option of healthcare.  We have a public option already, it's called Medicare/Medicaid, which, need I remind you, rejects more claims than any other kind of healthcare insurance?  That any insurance company will accept you even IF you have a pre-existing condition, but they'll just charge you more because of how insurance works?  That there's plenty of ways to make health care affordable that weren't looked at, and that the so-called un-cooperative republicans actually tried to cooperate, but were shut out at every turn?  That an amendment they suggested that would have restricted the new bill from taking funds from Medicade, Medicare, and Social Security was REJECTED by the democrats?

...Do you even pay attention to this stuff, or are you just spouting stuff you heard?

The post I quoted, and the specific part I quoted in bold.
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« Reply #36 on: March 31, 2010, 06:51:17 AM »

Re-read that.  Did I say they'd try to find a way to reject your claim?  Nope.  I said that Medicare rejects more claims than anything else - the other things just charge you a proportionally appropriate amount of money.
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Vorlan
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« Reply #37 on: April 15, 2010, 10:15:14 AM »

Forgive me if I'm wrong Role but where in this entire debate have you provided any proof or evidence as to your own arguments. As I think I mentioned earlier it's a bit rich to demand evidence from others when you provide none yourself. You'd have a right to demand evidence for my claims but only if you had backed up your own with independent, peer reviewed evidence too.

As for everyone being poor if America shared it's wealth; the GDP per capita of the USA is (2008 stats as those are the most recent) $47,440 . That's $47,440 per year for everyone. Not that poor really! In fact it rather makes everyone - well average income.

Either way that argument is largely academic as what is happening in America now is more socialised but it is not socialism. Besides most moderate socialists (myself included) would not argue for equal wages but for less extreme gaps between the highest and lowest incomes.

As for Medicare/Medicaid rejecting claims, that doesn't exactly smack of a system that provides for everyone. What happens to those who are denied there and who can't pay for another company? Are you comfortable to let them suffer and possibly die for the crime of being poor with a terminal illness?

I won't even go into the implications of your radical Darwinism. Suffice to say that it is possible with civilization and progress to actually give a damn what happens to other people. Sure we could trample on the weak and kill anyone who gets in our way but we can be better than that. We can create a society where the strong and the weak coexist. I mean look at what you're saying! "Survival of the fittest is the rule of life itself.  If you can't understand that this applies to everything, then evolution dictates that you aren't worth your existence, and will inevitably be purged from it." If you care you will be purged? Seriously? We don't have to behave like animals.
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Charon
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« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2010, 09:01:45 PM »

I won't even go into the implications of your radical Darwinism. Suffice to say that it is possible with civilization and progress to actually give a damn what happens to other people. Sure we could trample on the weak and kill anyone who gets in our way but we can be better than that. We can create a society where the strong and the weak coexist. I mean look at what you're saying! "Survival of the fittest is the rule of life itself.  If you can't understand that this applies to everything, then evolution dictates that you aren't worth your existence, and will inevitably be purged from it." If you care you will be purged? Seriously? We don't have to behave like animals.
I fully agree with this statement, and most support for capitalism/animosity against the health care bill is based within such banter. Of course, I still haven't seen the logical right-winged debate of "not being able to afford it" yet, which surprises me. Indeed, America, being a larger country than most European countries, poses a big problem - we have more people. Our friends to the north have less than a sixth of the population as we do. However, will this change end up being an investment for our future? A change that produces a system that we can, although being an expensive investment now, cause us to actually pay it off? It is far too early to tell, and the United States is a unique example that can not simply be applied to another country, only because our population is so high, that it may not be able to support itself.

In a small note, America is not becoming Socialist, despite passing Socialist reform. Is our country socialist because we have firefighters or a police force... or a military?
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Menaus
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« Reply #39 on: October 03, 2014, 07:39:36 AM »

Before anyone mentions--yes, I am necroing this thread. This is because I think we need to add some spice to the forum, and what better way than to spark a discussion about politics? We don't need to be inflammatory or insulting like Role can be, but we still should state out opinion and try to give the best evidence or logic to support it.

Forgive me if I'm wrong Role but where in this entire debate have you provided any proof or evidence as to your own arguments. As I think I mentioned earlier it's a bit rich to demand evidence from others when you provide none yourself. You'd have a right to demand evidence for my claims but only if you had backed up your own with independent, peer reviewed evidence too.

Yes, this is something called the burden of proof. She has certainly been within her argumentative rights (forgive the expression) to ask for proof. Although her lack of proof may hinder her argument, unless you actually call for proof it really isn't something that she 'must' do. Now that you have, it is interesting Role hasn't replied with her facts. I'd hate to be inflammatory like Role is, but I would like to recall her previous quote:

"Heh, well, given the total silence on your end, I assume you admit defeat and that your epic fail argument has absolutely no data backing it up."


Quote
I won't even go into the implications of your radical Darwinism. Suffice to say that it is possible with civilization and progress to actually give a damn what happens to other people. Sure we could trample on the weak and kill anyone who gets in our way but we can be better than that. We can create a society where the strong and the weak coexist. I mean look at what you're saying! "Survival of the fittest is the rule of life itself.  If you can't understand that this applies to everything, then evolution dictates that you aren't worth your existence, and will inevitably be purged from it." If you care you will be purged? Seriously? We don't have to behave like animals.

The strong and the weak are not the dividing line here. Instead, the line is between those who care to work for themselves so they can pursue happiness, and those who are too lazy to do that work. The problem with socialism and communism is that when you put society through that system, the work of the many who actually care to work is made to support the few who do not want to work, and then those who don't want to work end up ruling over those that do. In a capitalistic society, those who don't work can't raise in the ranks because they didn't put in the effort to do so. A socialist or communist system is akin to a tournament in which the people who trained the least and lost their match ups end up the champions, whereas the only thing those who worked hard got was the working itself. This sort of system is faulty, and humans do not naturally act in this way. If you had lost a tournament you should have won because those who didn't work 'had' to have been pushed to the level of those who did, you would be spouting the same ethics as a capitalist would, and that would make you a hypocrite.

In any case, the most important thing here, is that your argument is an appeal to emotion. You basically say that Role's argument is too hostile for you, and that it makes you feel bad, so her proposition shouldn't be how we should behave. This is completely illogical.

I suppose that Vorlan isn't here to defend his argument, but I know Role lurks these forums and a few others who were discussing things here also are still in the forum. Come on in and discuss your ideas. Is capitalism the correct system? Or does it need to be toned town with socialism?
« Last Edit: October 03, 2014, 07:41:48 AM by Menaus » Logged

"You state that I have misinterpreted my results, and it looks as though you believe my views to be unsound. Your arguments are those of an eminent scholar. I was myself a fair scholar. For years I pondered, so to speak, day and night over books, and filled my head with sound views–very sound ones, indeed—those of others. But I could no[t] get to practical results. I then began to work and think independently. Gradually my views became unsound, but they conducted me to some sound results." - Nikola Tesla
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Luna_blade
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« Reply #40 on: October 03, 2014, 02:33:53 PM »

I didn't read your whole post Menaus, but there is something which I like to say:
You're talking about people who don't want to work. Sure they exist, but there is also a group that cannot work. Or do you exclude those? (really not sure because I didn't read every post in the topic)

Either way, socialism/communism only works when you have hardworking people. What helps the whole thing is when everybody deosn't want to do the same job because of interest.

EXAMPLE:
One person wants to become a doctor, so he choose to study and become one OR another person does no study at all and becomes a cleaner because he likes to clean.
They do what they like and are equally rewarded.

While the idea seems strange at first, when you grow up with it, there is no such thing as "to lazy to work". Because you simply don't know something like that exists.

So this is what I have to say about this right now.
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« Reply #41 on: October 04, 2014, 04:33:06 AM »

Cool. My topic is still kicking.

For most of the work stuff, I think it would be neat if robots did the work when possible (Especially for jobs people don't like), since they are obviously more accurate than humans, and work faster.  It could be one of the deciding factors on whether you'd get sick or not... etc.

It would also be cool if there was an easy/reliable/obvious way for people to make a living without relying on some company you work at to give you money.  (Think of it as being your own boss, I know there's gardening, but that takes time, space, and a bit of monitoring.)...
« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 04:56:35 AM by Fox » Logged

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« Reply #42 on: October 04, 2014, 05:01:43 AM »

It's a rock and a hard place, with those two philosophies.
In terms of time-frame and human nature, neither socialism nor communism are sustainable practices, as they both neglect the importance of individual worth (a tangible measure of success, ie). the contents of your bank account after having worked for a week; the physical property the money you earn enables you to purchase and own) in favor of a perceived, intangible notion of maintaining a 'collective equality' (the thought that the sacrifices of time and labor one may or may not make during his lifetime for various reasons somehow directly contributes to the general level of 'equality' in his society - a concept he may or may not find appealing). Humans being visually-oriented creatures, neglecting to provide a tangible and immediate reward that one can consider worthy compensation for their investment of time and labor results in both philosophies failing to appeal to an essential aspect of human nature, in theory alone.

Consequentially, an individual's personal incentive to succeed is eliminated, which handicaps a society's pool of citizens willing to perform services through a sacrifice of their time and labor down to two remaining groups of people who naturally view the concept of action and reaction in a manner contrary to the majority of natural life: the citizen who is willing to perform a service so he may idealize an intangible concept of 'equality', and the citizen who is willing to perform a service solely for the personal enjoyment he reaps from it.
Being visually-oriented, humans and other animals naturally expect an immediate or eventual result to occur as the result of their efforts; (one sacrifices his time to perform a laborious task [pressing the red button] expecting tangible compensation [the satisfying discovery of what the red button does] to be awarded to him as a result of his investment) a policy otherwise known as sensory perception, a basic survival instinct based on the relationship between physical stimuli and the sensations they effect.
As a result, the majority of any selection of human beings will naturally fail to idealize the intangible compensatory nature of socialism and communism, resulting in the eventual failure of both philosophies in application within a human society.

In addition, the only way for either philosophy to ever be sustainable in practice is to alter that fundamental survival instinct, among others, in a species. Historically, practitioners of the two philosophies have attempted and continue to attempt to meet that end through the means of increasing the scope and influence of a government. Common examples of the practitioners of that methodology in modern historical application through a variety of means would be the Democratic People's Republic of Korea under Kim Jong-un, preceded by his father and grandfather before him; as well as the United States of America under President Barack Obama.

Conversely, despite its comparatively less self-restricting imperfections in both theory and practice, capitalism remains the most appropriate philosophy for natural life, as it does not fail to appeal to that basic instinct.
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« Reply #43 on: October 04, 2014, 06:42:29 AM »

A very well constructed post Majora.

I agree what on what you say here, because we can clearly see it returning in most animal populations.
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« Reply #44 on: October 04, 2014, 03:59:21 PM »

Communism is thing which cannot happen because than it is Like we all are slaves but are unite. Than to keep everyone to start mutiny people who rules this "utopia" must keep everyone dumb. Because smart people are harder to manipulate. Today situation in world is shitty but better than What I mentioned. World united together.... and other staff it is dream, dumb dream!
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Fox: part, ofcourse.
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