A present for Sala

[Salanewt]

Which type of Action Commands are you talking about, field or battle? We have an alternative for field actions, which is already in Golden Sun. For battle, we could probably add something like in Super Mario RPG, where you press a button at a certain time to take less damage. We would have to completely change how the Golden Sun battle system works to implement something like in the Mario & Luigi games though (like being able to go as far as dodging and countering attacks), so I do not suggest this.

Needles to say, I agree with adopting some concepts from the other Mario RPG games... However, we should definitely NOT make the player feel like they ARE playing one of those games, or a sequel to them. Of course, we do need a new plot than "Oh no! Mario! The princess has been kidnapped again! Go stop Bowser again!", but new ideas need to be made, and can borrow some things from the older games. For example, why can't Princess Peach get kidnapped again? I mean, she does have the ability to escape (not to mention her enormous power when she is having her mood swings). In fact, if Peach is placed on the team, I have a new idea for an ability, but it is only for the overworld.

Copy: Makes you look like the nearest animate object. You can easily blend in when in certain areas (and this allows us for some new puzzles immediately).

As for how to initiate a battle, I think we should remove random encounters when on a map. After all, every other Mario RPG lets you see the enemies on the map so you can choose who to fight. Of course, random encounters on the World Map is still a good idea and will help make this game different from the others.

Have a nice day.

[Aile~♥]

We need action commands for things like attacking, but not to the extent of M&L. Paper Mario would probably be a better example.

[leaf]

@Sala: Battle. I forgot that field commands were even called action commands tbqh.

I agree that the player should not feel like they are playing a paper mario or M&L game. They should feel like they're playing another mario RPG spin-off.

And making encounters more like the mario RPGs will be difficult... there's already code in the game for making characters move around an area, so it's probably doable to make encounters work like the other mario RPGs, causing an encounter to trigger when your character's collision box overlaps with the NPC's. Another problem is that would require a ton of different room states, if it even would work like that >_>

@Jamie: Yeah. That's what I was thinking. Action commands for dealing extra damage and for reducing damage, but not completely dodging and countering like the M&L games.

[Salanewt]

For sprite collision? This would be the best way to handle it, yes. I recall that because of sprite collision, you can press the "A" button to speak to a character, or to do other things with them. Using this, one could also make a character that talks when you approach them. The problem with this is that if the appropriate flags are not set, that character will talk forever... Unless you hold a directional button to walk away very slowly (not before they repeat what they said a few more times though). Using this concept, it should be possible to replace the talking script with a battle script which locates an enemy group (like the ones in the enemy editor). When the battle is won, the enemy sprite vanishes from the map (good example includes the Chestbeaters). If you lose, it is Game-over, and you can go back to a Sanctuary (which can be made into a Toad House for the hack). Of course, most objects use multiple scripts (for moving around, for what they do, and some other minor details for how they relate to the map).

This is pretty much how it works in Superstar Saga, though there was little need to explain it (except to those who are unaware of how it works). This type of scripting is probably similar to other games though, mainly RPGs.

Oh, and I forgot to mention. It seems that the maps used in battle are separate from those used for actual level maps and scripts (like cutscenes, map on wall, etc.). Not sure if we could create a new map bank in Golden Sun which is built differently, but I figure that it would be similar to what is used for the battle backgrounds already.

Have a nice day.

[Rolina]

Okay... I just realized something I could do:

The plot starts off like this:  Bowser tells a bunch of goombas/troopas to go kidnap the princess, and sends the Koopa Kids (and Jr) to go and stop Mario's inevitable chase.  Well, the Goombas get there, and kidnap the princess...

The WRONG Princess... they nab Daisy in the confusion, and since it's too late to go back...

The basic journey is Mario, Luigi, and their party chasing after Daisy until finally they get to Bowser.  An ongoing joke will probably be that they try to stop Mario from rescuing Peach when Peach is RIGHT THERE.

This keeps the "saving the princess" theme, it makes Peach Playable, and it has quite a bit of mario-esque humor in it.

You can have 6 people on the party I figure, but it's gonna take some testing to figure out how to do the last 2 - they'd need to be element neutral, or rather, have no innate 'element' or 'type'.  I figure we could make Peach this, and depending on what powerup you give her for the 9th (and final) powerup, it would make her Psyche Bomb one of the four elements, along with other minor tweaks to the skillset.

What are your thoughts on this?

If we do this, we still need three more characters.  I don't think DK would be one, though.

[Aile~♥]

DK is awesome though! I mean, doesn't he have, like, a coconut bazooka or something?

Overall, though, that is a fairly decent plot idea. Problem is, with that we can't really have partner characters, and neither Peach nor Luigi have much of a personality for us to go by, and Mario is a Silent Protagonist.

[Salanewt]

Well, if we were to have DK, then it would be Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, Peach, DK, and possibly... A Toad (or Toadsworth)? The only problem with DK is that he is much more detached from the Mario series than Yoshi, who even appears in regular Mario adventures. Both have their own series, but Yoshi is strongly tied in with Mario and DK is practically by himself (similar with having the Wario series).

Anyway, I like having the wrong princess captured, it would be quite amusing in the end (but maybe Bowser should not see Daisy until the end (at least to not see her face completely), because he should be able to recognise Peach considering how often he has kidnapped her).

neither Peach nor Luigi have much of a personality for us to go by

You have played the Paper Mario games, right? Even the Mario & Luigi games add a tiny bit. We can also give Mario some personality through his actions, and what others say about him.

Luigi is the younger (twin) brother who wants to be alongside Mario in his adventures and looks up to Mario, even though he also tends to be afraid of things more often. Peach is kind of like Mia, except she actually can show other emotions, which she sometimes does quite well (basically, she is a "pure soul", but not an isolated soul).

As for element neutral, I figure that we should spread the elements around with each character, so one character is not solely one element. I mean, Mario can jump and use fire, why should he be limited to Fire element? Luigi can also use Shock in some games, so why only Jump? If there is a completely neutral character, it would most likely be Peach (though she is good at floating, as seen in Super Mario Bros. 2).

Have a nice day.

[leaf]

Yeah... I don't think we should use toadsworth, at least not as a PC. He's always filled a kraden-like role, there for advice, but not ever really doing anything else. He isn't even playable in the mario sports games!

@Role: I like that. It actually does sound like a pretty plausible situation for a mario RPG, with the minions thinking they have peach the whole time but actually having daisy. Although if peach joined the party for that, it'd sorta be pretty :fridgelogic:. "Why are we taking peach along when the minions' goal was to kidnap her?" Especially since in these situations peach usually just asks the mario bros to go do their thing, while she hangs back at the castle. The other problem is that if something like this happened, you'd expect for there to be a whole other part of the game after bowser found out.

Maybe combine our ideas? Like, for the first part of the game, you're chasing bowser's minions back to the castle because they took daisy, and along the way, they find some object of power, and one of them picks it up because it's "ooh, shiny." When bowser finds out about the minions' screw-up, he begins roasting the minions, and the one that picked it up asks if he can be spared if he gives the object to bowser. In typical bowser fashion, he considers it, then roasts the minion extra hard when he learns that it's just some shiny rock. After getting roasted, the minion drops the object, where kamek flies in to pick it up and realizes what it is. Bowser then uses it as the party heads back to peach's castle, setting up the second part of the game.

Oh, and definitely gonna echo what sala's saying about the elements. I'd expect most characters to be multi-elemental in their base class.

[Rolina]

@Sala on DK:  EXACTLY!  This is why I said Cameo or NPC at best, not a player character.  Keep the established Mario Characters as the PCs.

@Leaf on Story Premise: Nah, Peach comes along to save her fellow princess/sister if they're related (dunno about that...).  As for the kidnapping, my idea was that they tried to kindnap peach, but typical mario bros' style chaos happens and when they get out of it, they realize that they grabbed the wrong princess.  They KNOW they got the wrong one, but it's too late to go back and get the right one, so they more or less go "meh, good enough".  Which, of course, draws ire from their damsel ("what am I, a second rate princess to you?!" Or something.)

@Leaf on Dual Elemental bases:  Huh... let's try and see if we can manipulate the code to do that.  If we do it that way, it could be that the djinn system doesn't work by elements so much as 'character essence' or something - giving a Mario essence to Peach gives her a more Mario-like class, etc...  Sure, I may suck at explaining it, and am probably using the totally wrong terms, but... I'm sure someone will figure out what I tried to say.

To try and cut out the oddness:  The djinn system isn't done by element, but by character basis.

[Aile~♥]

I'm inclined to agree with leaf in terms of story.

So, what you're trying to say, Role, is that you don't want any new characters to be created if you can possibly avoid it?

And I thought you were the one to NOT base things on just one type of Mario game. DK is a Mario series too, technically. Besides, he's the only good Mario character with a gun, aside from Diddy Kong, but Diddy's a more of a "minor" character. It's also because otherwise, we wouldn't have a character with the "brute force always works" style. Having DK playable would open up MANY puzzle opportunities, ones involving the ability to strike a switch from a distance, and puzzles involving sheer strength.

[Rolina]

No, I'm saying that Player Characters shouldn't be new, but others are fine.  For example, the kidnapping party would be un-genericified goombas and koopa troopas.  Names and 'tude and all.  They'd have their own face icons to match, and are as much as important as Daisy in this story.  Heck, I imagine cutscenes where they're dealing with Daisy and worrying what Bowser's gonna do to them...

[leaf]

@Sala on DK:  EXACTLY!  This is why I said Cameo or NPC at best, not a player character.  Keep the established Mario Characters as the PCs.

@Leaf on Story Premise: Nah, Peach comes along to save her fellow princess/sister if they're related (dunno about that...).  As for the kidnapping, my idea was that they tried to kindnap peach, but typical mario bros' style chaos happens and when they get out of it, they realize that they grabbed the wrong princess.  They KNOW they got the wrong one, but it's too late to go back and get the right one, so they more or less go "meh, good enough".  Which, of course, draws ire from their damsel ("what am I, a second rate princess to you?!" Or something.)

@Leaf on Dual Elemental bases:  Huh... let's try and see if we can manipulate the code to do that.  If we do it that way, it could be that the djinn system doesn't work by elements so much as 'character essence' or something - giving a Mario essence to Peach gives her a more Mario-like class, etc...  Sure, I may suck at explaining it, and am probably using the totally wrong terms, but... I'm sure someone will figure out what I tried to say.

To try and cut out the oddness:  The djinn system isn't done by element, but by character basis.

Oh, so they realize they have the wrong princess? Even better. That would be pretty hilarious, actually, if done well.

The dual elemental bases was actually sala's idea, one that I really like. Gotta give credit where credit is due.

What I was thinking for the djinn replacement would be to make it more similar to ToS's EXspheres, except without the different levels and stuff, and you'd be able to switch them around freely. So each character gets a certain number of "djinn" (I still think they should be called stars or something based on stars), and they can choose which element to align them to, similar to how you could choose which upgrade EXspheres gave in ToS. These "djinn" can be switched from character to character. Not sure exactly how you would code the "djinn" to be able to change elements, though, especially if they give different attacks depending on what element they are.

So currently, the star ("djinn") system I'm thinking of would be something like this: Each star grants a specific ability as well as some stat boosts. Stars can be equipped to anyone, similar to djinn. When equipped, you can change their element to change your class (only outside of battle). Changing elements outside of battle would replace the set/standby/recovery selections there. Additionally, changing elements will result in changing the element of the star's attack in battle, along with possibly some other small changes to the attack in question. Changing elements could adjust the stat boosts given as well (not sure how I feel about this). When in battle, using a star will cause it to be eligible for use in a Star Crash ("summon") for a certain number of turns before being returned to the player, similar to being in a "standby" phase. The sooner it's used, the more powerful the star crash will be, but using it sooner will result in longer waits before getting the star back to be used again (this would act similar to the "recovery" phase in that the star cannot be used for anything in this phase). When "set," a star can only have its ability used, and it cannot be used for a star crash. If a star is put into "standby," it can still be used to reset its turn counter, but it will be substantially weaker than if it was used when "set." Most stars' default attacks would be slightly stronger versions of attacks that you would normally have to expend FP for, but the "standby" versions would be drastically weaker. Stat boosts given by stars are always present in battle, and are not lost when a star's ability is used or when a star is used for a star crash.

Although what do you think about having a second part to the story after you fight bowser?

[Aile~♥]

I'd be inclined, rather than having a "star crash", to have team attacks similar in style to the M&L games, although I suppose doing it more in Paper Mario 2 style COULD work...

[leaf]

Well, team attacks could be pretty cool, but it'd require adding a lot of different attacks, since we'd have to make one for every character combination. That could get especially messy if we use more than four characters.

[Rolina]

Double/Triple/Quad Techs would require an EFoC, so... no.  Cool, yes, which is why CT was awesome, but the system wouldn't support it.

@Leaf:  See my essences idea in the elements thread.  We can use Story to give the excuse to use it.  That's how most mario mcguffins are done, anyways...

[Aile~♥]

Not really, since it's sprite based, and most would probably be physical. That's kind of like saying you need another animation for every character combination for the Djinni Meld.

[Rolina]

...You'd have to code it so that they become disabled when the target character is downed, or stunned, or other...

Basically, the animation is the EASY part.  It's actually CODING the ability to do it that's not.  You're just thinking in animations.  Gotta remember:  How is the game supposed to know who to use?  Or which ones you can and cannot use do two who's combat ready and not?  How are you supposed to drain FP from everyone when you use it?  How are you gonna remove other people's turns when you use it?

EFoC, my friend.  EFoC.

[Aile~♥]

Bros. Attacks in M&L don't take up both characters' turns. Easy to choose who: the user, and the character with the highest Affinity in that type (We can do a check for Attack (Meld), why not for Affinity (Elemental Power)?

[leaf]

Well, I can imagine it would work something like this...

Team Super comes in the turn order:
Set ValueA = 0
Character 1's HP is checked, If HP>0, ValueA = ValueA + 1
Character 2's HP is checked, If HP>0, ValueA = ValueA + 2
Character 3's HP is checked, If HP>0, ValueA = ValueA + 4
Character 4's HP is checked, If HP>0, ValueA = ValueA + 8
If ValueA is not equal to 1, 2, 4, or 8: (if all characters are alive, ValueA = 15, or 0xF; if only certain characters are alive, it will be apparent which ones)
- If ValueB>=X: (ValueB is the measurement used for the amount of Super meter the team currently has, Team Super costs X amount of Super meter)
-- ValueB = ValueB - X
-- Select appropriate formula and animation based on ValueA (an If statement for each possible value of ValueA)
- Else: Super fails due to lack of Super meter
Else: Super fails due to lack of characters

Pardon my pseudo-code. You could switch the order of the checks if you wanted failure due to lack of characters to have priority. As for the super meter itself, you should be able to add a line at the end of each attack command to increase the super meter by a certain amount, which would probably be stored in a float. I think the biggest hurdle would actually be the graphical side of this, adding in a whole new meter for it.

This doesn't prevent the other characters from choosing actions that turn, but as long as supers take up at least half of the super meter (I'm actually partial to making it take up all of it, a la unison attacks in ToS), it shouldn't be too big of a problem. And note that while I've been referring to this as a generic super meter, it'd prob be named something else in the game.

[Aile~♥]

I was saying replace Summons with those, using "Stars" or whatever you're gonna make them.

Stars can have personalities too. It's heavily implied in Super Mario Galaxy that Stars are alive as well.

I wonder what it would be like to have a Star eating your chips?