A present for Sala

[Aile~♥]

It was a Venus Djinni, named Meld if I recall correctly.

The real question is can we make combination abilities, say using Spin Jump with Mario's Fireball to result in a Bros. Fire Tornado or something.

Overall I do think that's a pretty good portrait.

[Salanewt]

Okay, thanks for the advice, it is just that I have no idea which other shades to use for the rest of Yoshi (I tried using others, but I could not get it to blend in well). I will try a bit more though, since I know where I can add another shade near his nostrils. Also, thanks Jamie, but I made a slight update.

Well, I somehow ended up with 16 colours for the portrait, but the transparent colour does not have to be transparent, right?



Changes since last portrait: Less lighting on spikes, more on face (mainly nostril region).

I have counted:
5 shades of green,
4 shades of grays (one of which is white)
4 shades of orange (just removed one),
black,
blue.

Have a nice day.

Also, Spinfire? Reminds me of Super Mario World, when you would perform a Spin Jump while using a Fire Flower.

[Atrius (He/Him)]

That's not quite what I meant...  The new shade of green you added is too similar to the the previously brightest one to make much of a difference.  Here, I made a couple edits to your portrait to better show what I was talking about with smoothing out the shading:



I don't really recommend a dithering style of shading for something like this, if necessary plain old cell shading lends itself better to the existing art style anyway.  I also made a couple minor modifications to areas of the face that I thought could be shaped just a little better, and desaturated the green just a hair.

EDIT: I stand corrected, Golden Sun does seem to favor dithering in some ways...  Personally I still don't like it very much though.

Another thing I thought of looking at the portrait again, the red in his spikes could use a bit more contrast.

[leaf]

Interesting ideas!

The combo thing seems impractical, though...

For elements, imo: Fire (Mario), Jump (Weegee), Ice (Mallow), Star (Geno)
Fire/Ice are opposing, and Jump/Star are opposing.

If there was a second party, I'd imagine it being something like Bowser (fire), Yoshi (jump), ??? (ice), and Peach (star). Dunno who could fill in the ice role... Truth is ice doesn't seem to be something that would be all that common in the mario universe for a character attribute, except for enemies that you would specifically find in a slippy slidey ice world...

[Aile~♥]

Role was basing it off the elements found in Super Mario RPG.

Combos are only impractical if the combo isn't more powerful than the moves being combo'd.

[Salanewt]

To be honest, I dislike dithering as well, but I noticed that several of the other Golden Sun portraits seem to use it, so I was trying to make it closer to Golden Sun style. I do prefer the smoother looking one though, so I am just adapting the semi-original to look more like that. I also missed that one shade of green... Thanks!

Yeah, I ran into a similar problem in a different topic a while ago for having another Mario based Mercury character, so I made Yoshi the first one and decided to make it a Nintendo hack instead of Mario. I mean, almost any Mario character could be a Jump type character, it is just that Mario is better at it than most others (well, according to residents of the Mushroom Kingdom, but Yoshi can also Flutter Jump, so he is practically the King of Jumping).

Okay, here is the most modern version, including some improvisions from Atrius' version, as well as one or two slight modifications, and a slightly darker outline.



Have a nice day.

[Rolina]

Replacement for whirlwind?  Mario version of reveal?


What's wrong with you people?  Stop putting Golden Sun puzzles in my Mario game.  We need MARIO style puzzles!  Stop thinking with GS field psys, and try to figure out what we can do that makes this uniquely Mario.  Jump, obviously, is one of them.  I figure so is Fireball, Iceball, and Thunderbolt.  Jump works like you recommended - you jump about as high as a carry block.  Fireball burns down bushes.  Iceball works like Cryo.  Thunderbolt... we'll have to figure out.

Now, I can't believe nobody mentioned this:  We can keep Mind Read.  It's Mallow's Psychopath!

Leaf:  Hmm... the reason I had thunder is because we have precident with SMRPG, so we can do a lot of plug-and-play there.  When you think Stars in mario, what do you think of?  Me?  Starman.  So, that would mean that his abilities involve insta-kills and invulnerability. ...Maybe we should stick with thunder. ^-^;  Besides, only one of Mallow's moves was ice elemental, and he's a freaking cloud - wind and thunder just fit.  Heck, Mallow's most well known attacks are thunder based.  Thunderbolt and Shocker are shock, Snowy was Ice, Star Jump was non-elemental, and HP Rain and Psychopath were supplemental.

Sala, remember - this is a Mario game, so... shouldn't we make it more Mario style?  I'm surprised that you'd try to make it in a GS style... if it's to try and make me happy though... sorry...

Anywho, Mario and Luigi have two signature moves - Jump and Shoot fireballs.  Mario 2 established Luigi as being able to jump higher, and that stuck - often times, he can jump higher, but has less traction.  Thus, he's the Jump elemental.  Mario's the Fire elemental as a result.  And since Jump is the new Move, both can use the field version of Jump on the map.

Though Mallow could use any element except for Fire, he had two Shock elemental attack as opposed to the single ice element one.  Thus, Mallow is the Thunder dood.

Geno, though all his attacks were non-elemental, at least can easily be converted to Ice, if nothing else than for "color coded for your convenience".  Besides, there was what, all of TWO ice elemental attacks in the whole of Mario RPG?  Snowy and Ice Bomb, iirc, are the only ones you can actually use.  Besides, I imagine it's pretty cold way up there in the star road. :P

Anywho, I've got an EPA for mario:


Shell Striker → Lazy Shell
Shell Striker - a small green Koopa Shell fall from the sky, and Mario does a Mario Strikers-style kick on it, turning it all flamey.
Lazy Shell - ditto as above, only instead of the Koopa Shell, it's the Lazy Shell from SMRPG.

For Luigi:

Ground Pound → Sky Pound

Ground Pound - Exactly what it says on the tin.
Sky Pound - Jumps way off screen.  You hear him falling for a while until BAM! He shakes the ground upon landing.

These are base class ones, of course.  For Mallow and Geno, their base classes are mage ones, so we'll need to come up with some for their alt classes.


Mallow should be an average of Spells and Heals.

Geno I figure is Spells and Buffs.


Also... Charon, you out there?  Or someone else gifted in musical talent?  What would Mario RPG's battle theme sound like when done with GS instruments?

[Salanewt]

Sala, remember - this is a Mario game, so... shouldn't we make it more Mario style?  I'm surprised that you'd try to make it in a GS style... if it's to try and make me happy though... sorry...

Not quite. I was trying to make it partially in Golden Sun style, just so the artistic part of it would be universally compatible with both Mario and Golden Sun games (and since I also want it in my Superstar Saga hack when I can add portraits, I do not want to go through the work of making multiple portraits for different games). Besides, as for Mario style, it would be a good idea to get the style from any of the Mario RPGs (not Paper Mario games) and enhance it. In fact, I grabbed that Yoshi head from an image of a cover image for Yoshi's Island (one image with several Yoshis from Japan), and greatly altered the colours. I can not find that image again, but I want to make some more Yoshi portraits with different angles and palettes (since, if we will have at least two or three different Yoshis, we might need a different portrait for each one, and also to be more creative than just a palette swap for each).

There are some neat puzzles in Superstar Saga that I could reference you to, but most would not be very compatible with this type of RPG... That is, unless we can allow the team to split up while on the map (so a full party of four could split up, Mario and Mallow go left, and Luigi and Geno go right, for example). This would be a bit harder to implement into Golden Sun, but the Mario and Luigi games work sort of like this at times. This would mean that one half of the team can go to a room, pull a switch, and open a room for the other team. Things would be changed as well so the game understands that the other party members have left the team. However, you would not be able to separate them whenever you want. It would only happen either during cutscenes, or if a script is activated somewhere on the map (so you also have to have your team when you leave the area).

I think nobody mentioned Mind Read, possibly because of Mallow's Psychopath? Hard to say.

Those sounds good for Mario's EPAs. I also have an idea from Super Mario RPG... Remember Yoshi Cookies? If one is used, it can summon Yoshi in battle. We could probably have something like this, using a summon psynergy as a base. Autokill, and perhaps a script for it, so you also automatically get the item that the enemy holds (not guaranteed to kill for some enemies, and will not kill bosses unless it removes enough HP).

I would try making some music, but I am still not very good at it. I will try it out later, maybe around March Break? Full week to try to work on things.

Have a nice day.

Edit: I just remembered that portraits for Superstar Saga would not be ideal, because it uses direct speech bubbles for when characters talk, think, etc. It does also use a similar text box format to Golden Sun at times though, but only for graphics (and even then, they are not quite like Golden Sun, other than for not coming from a specific character). I will try to alter it in the future though, so portraits might be usable... This is not the place to discuss this though.

[Aile~♥]

We could probably keep the Beam series as well as the Fireball series, meaning two Fire series out of the way.

Weegee stuff, since we need more than 1 combat ability:

Jump: Weegee jumps on a target's head and lands back on his side of the battlefield. 30 power, range 1. This would probably be his level one ability, costing about 4 FP. (unless in Mario style, in which case this ability would cost 1 FP.

Double Jump: Weegee jumps, lands on a target's head, footstool jumps, and then lands on the target again creating a large Superstar Saga-style burst of stars. 60 power, range 3. Probably would cost about 9 FP. (Unless in Mario style, in which case it would probably cost 2 FP.

Triple Jump: This may be a case of Exactly What it Says on the Tin, but Luigi jumps, lands, does a double jump, lands, then does a triple jump and lands on a target, creating a massive Superstar Saga-style star burst. 120 Power, range 5. Would probably cost about 20 FP. (remember I'm measuring costs in Flower Power, not Psynergy Points. However, I'm still basing the costs in GS style. In Mario terms, this ability would probably cost 3 FP.)

Mario stuff:

He'd get Fire of course, possibly Beam, but as for original stuff:

Fire Jump: Like Luigi's Jump, but he doesn't go as high and his boots are on fire. Eat that suckers!

Super Fire Jump: Mario jumps with his BOOTS ON FIRE, lands on a target and creates a small Blast (Mad)-like explosion on impact. Basically same as Luigi's Double Jump.

Hyper Fire Jump: Mario jumps ridiculously high straight off the screen with his boots acting like Jump-Jets, and comes back down on a target with a large Nova-like explosion. Basically the same as Luigi's Triple Jump. Eat that!


As for actual game mechanics, we need to pull a Superstar Saga by allowing one character to get places others can't. For example, with Luigi's Jump being slightly higher than Mario's, there could be areas he could get to that Mario just barely can't. And of course Mallow, being a cloud, can fly, so no problems there. Either that, or we need to pull a Paper Mario with ridiculously well-hidden passageways. I mean, there were times when the only way to go farther was just to have Flurry or whatever her name was blow her windy breath everywhere in hopes of revealing a secret location. And Koops the Koopa was just fun. I mean, shell kick FTW! It was largely like an offensive version of Catch.

@Sala: She was talking about the puzzle styles.

[Hoopa]

There are some neat puzzles in Superstar Saga that I could reference you to, but most would not be very compatible with this type of RPG... That is, unless we can allow the team to split up while on the map (so a full party of four could split up, Mario and Mallow go left, and Luigi and Geno go right, for example). This would be a bit harder to implement into Golden Sun, but the Mario and Luigi games work sort of like this at times. This would mean that one half of the team can go to a room, pull a switch, and open a room for the other team. Things would be changed as well so the game understands that the other party members have left the team. However, you would not be able to separate them whenever you want. It would only happen either during cutscenes, or if a script is activated somewhere on the map (so you also have to have your team when you leave the area).

I don't know about Golden sun 2, but this could be possible in golden sun 1. Remember the coliseum? You could switch to other party members to help Issac along the stage.

[leaf]

@Role: Stars have been used in many other ways, though. I was actually thinking star would be a sort of catch-all element for enemies that don't fit in one of the others. Like I said about ice, though... it doesn't really fit in the mario world that well to have a whole ice element all to itself, unless you're going to have a 6 element or 8 element system or something, so I think finding a replacement for ice would be a good idea, here.

Anyway, I'm actually not a big fan of using mallow/geno here, mostly because they're strictly from SMRPG, rather than the mario universe as a whole. I could see any of yoshi, peach, or even bowser filling in the last two spots. Actually... perhaps all three... Start off with just mario/luigi, who quickly get into a routine encounter with bowser, but get interrupted by some third party (fawful?), causing all three of them to be sent flying into some forest/sanctuary or something. The puzzles here are too much for bowser and the enemies are too much for the mario bros, so the three are forced to team up to get out. During this segment, bowser can't be given or use items and such, and acts more or less like a jeigen to get you through enemies that have gobs of HP compared to your damage output. When you get out of the situation you're in and finally make it back to peach's castle, after finding some strange object where you were sent to, bowser betrays you (cue hopeless boss fight), steals the object, kidnaps peach, and flees. Yoshi joins you after seeing what happened with bowser, and you have a party of three for the next quarter or so of the game until you reach bowser's castle, defeat him, and rescue peach, who joins you as your fourth character. Fawful briefly takes bowser's place as the primary antagonist, using bowser's defeat as his chance to set up his own evil plan by taking the strange object before the bros can get it. Using this object, fawful summons some new dark being that taints the land, springing up seven new bosses, each guarding a major area. However, he quickly loses control of it and becomes a far less significant character. This necessitates the party to traverse the entirety of the mushroom kingdom (including areas they had already been through but couldn't get to the deeper parts of them due to a lack of abilities) to defeat the bosses and obtain their macguffins (dark essence?), which when united allow the heroes to reach the dark being's realm and defeat it.

Pretty standard fare RPG plot, but w/e.

[Aile~♥]

For enemies who don't fit any of the other things, remember that there's still non-elemental, which could easily be called "star" if we wanted.

Personally, I think Mario needs MORE ice. Remember, we have freedom of creativity here. We could design our own enemies. I think Geno and Mallow should be there for at least part of the game, and we might actually want to use both teams so we can include them, as well as perhaps Goombella and Koops. Madam Flurries or whatever was a really lame Large Ham sort of character, and we can just scrap her. For second party, we need:

Goombella: Jump
Mallow: Shock
Geno: Ice or Fire
??? (Koops maybe? Yoshi?): Whatever Geno isn't

[leaf]

Well of course we can design our own enemies. We should be designing our own enemies... at least based on already existing ones, anyway. Every mario rpg to date has added new enemies to the franchise, even though a lot were based on already existing enemies (ie. troopeas in M+L:SS being based on koopa troopas or the many variants of piranha plants seen in the paper mario games).

By why use such one-off characters like the partners from the paper mario games? Every mario rpg has kept the standard hero(es), usually adding a few one-off heroes, while making bowser a foe, but making some new enemy the real big bad. They never bring back old partners unless it's a main hero (ie. mario and luigi), and so far, fawful is the only recurring villain besides bowser and his minions. This is why I think we should stick with the well-established characters, rather than using chars like mallow and geno, or goombella and koops. The latter two aren't even from the mushroom kingdom.

True enough about "star" element.

[Aile~♥]

Yes, but Fawful only appears in one particular series. If you want to argue that we should use fawful, you're essentially arguing that we should use Goombella and those others as well.

Why do you not like cameo appearances? I mean, why not use anyone from the Mario universe? I honestly don't see why not.

Honestly, Goombella was also one of my favourite characters, and Koops was one of the most useful.

If it ain't broken, don't mess with it, I say.

[leaf]

No, a recurring character =! a non-recurring character. Although I'm not actually that fond of the idea of using fawful to begin with. He's just the only recurring character I could think of that would serve as an enabler for a plot I drafted out in about five minutes.

And when did I say cameos were bad? I said that making a one-off character one of the main protagonists was a bad idea, but I never said anything about cameos.

[Salanewt]

Well, initially, the idea was to use the blue and yellow Toads instead of Geno and Mallow. However, two Toads is like having both Ivan and Sheba on your team.

We could probably keep the Beam series as well as the Fireball series, meaning two Fire series out of the way.

We could probably keep Fireball with a different animation. As for Beam, this seems like a good idea, but its element should be changed. After all, Geno can use beam abilities too, so a palette swap of Beam and element change should suffice.

Every mario rpg has kept the standard hero(es), usually adding a few one-off heroes

True, except for Paper Mario, for Nintendo 64. That game had Bowser as the main villain. It was also apparently gave inspiration to the creation of Superstar Saga (you should see some of the beta stuff, it looks like Superstar Saga was at one point planned to be a direct sequel). According to some sources, Rogueport is a poorer part of the Mushroom Kingdom, which means that all of those characters are from the Mushroom Kingdom. However, I kind of have doubts about the credibility of those sources (Mariowiki).

Why do you not like cameo appearances? I mean, why not use anyone from the Mario universe? I honestly don't see why not.

Depends on the character. I mean, Geno was used as a cameo in Superstar Saga. However, that game practically had a reference to every Mario game, as well as some of the other main Nintendo games (though most of them were beta cameos, they still existed). As for Paper Mario partners... It really depends on who it is and where they are from. For example, I would never expect to see Vivian again after Paper Mario 2, but why not meet Goombario in a Library?

Well of course we can design our own enemies. We should be designing our own enemies...

I agree. In fact, if Mario RPGs have taught us anything, it means that we can practically have anything. It would be best to base new creations off of existing ones though, like Cheep Cheep and Puffer Cheep, or Goomba and Tanoomba.

I could see any of yoshi, peach, or even bowser filling in the last two spots. Actually... perhaps all three...

Technically, I could see this as well, especially since each character has either been a main character, or has helped Mario and Luigi (and all of them except for Yoshi are in Paper Mario Wii, but that is more like a Platform than an RPG). The only problem with this is that this makes a team of 5... Who are our other 3 (easier to stick with four characters, certainly not Daisy, Wario and Waluigi, blech!)?

Honestly, Goombella was also one of my favourite characters, and Koops was one of the most useful.

I prefer Kooper over Koops, but everyone has freedom to their own opinions. In Paper Mario (N64), I would normally have Kooper follow me as a replacement for Yoshi (too bad, since I want to get a copy of the game again). In the Thousand Year Door, I would have Yoshiro follow me (what I named the Yoshi). We should have a different topic for Mario RPG conversations though.

I don't know about Golden sun 2, but this could be possible in golden sun 1. Remember the coliseum?

Well, from what I have learned, anything is possible with hacking (as long as you do not exceed hardware limitations). If it has been done in the first Golden Sun, then it most likely can be done in the second. The thing about the first though is that only Isaac fought enemies, and that was a scripted enemy. For the hack, all characters should be able to fight random enemies, and sometimes scripted as well.

Yes, but Fawful only appears in one particular series.

True. He seems to be dead now, or else he could possess Bowser. That should preferably happen in a new sequel of the game though, not a hack.


Now, to stop answering quotes (though I have read most of your posts, and they do have good statements), I would like to offer a few of my ideas.

We could probably include items that change a character's appearance if we want. What I would like to suggest, if we only have the four characters, are items that could transform one character to look similar to another, and even use different animations (this would work like Isaac using a Machete in the first Golden Sun).


Still a bit unsure on the details though, but these are my ideas so far (and I happened to make icons for two of them a while ago, what a coincidence!).


Yoshi Mask: Wear this to look like Yoshi! Remember, you will only look like a Yoshi, so travel will still be limited unless you travel with an actual Yoshi.

Peach's Dress: Wear this to look like Peach! After sinking into Teehee Valley, Luigi picked this up and hid it in Mario's house (right in the hidden basement, with his diary)!

Bowser Suit: Wear this to look like Bowser! You do not gain his strength or fiery breath, and Bowser's minions do not follow you due to confusion.


If these items were to be included, they would not give any stat bonuses, nor would they change any other aspect of a character than their appearance. The Yoshi Mask is an original idea, but the other two have appeared as items in other Mario games (the dress in Superstar Saga, and the suit in one or two of the Mario Party games).

Well, these are the last of my ideas for now, but more are coming.

Have a nice day.

[Atrius (He/Him)]

Also... Charon, you out there?  Or someone else gifted in musical talent?  What would Mario RPG's battle theme sound like when done with GS instruments?

I tried my hand at it.  I had to replace a couple instruments since Golden Sun didn't have some of what they were originally supposed to be, hopefully it doesn't make too big a difference though.  There are still some problems with the drum kit though.

[leaf]

Technically, I could see this as well, especially since each character has either been a main character, or has helped Mario and Luigi (and all of them except for Yoshi are in Paper Mario Wii, but that is more like a Platform than an RPG). The only problem with this is that this makes a team of 5... Who are our other 3 (easier to stick with four characters, certainly not Daisy, Wario and Waluigi, blech!)?

Well, in my (very rough) scenario, there was no second team. Bowser just joins you for a little while and leaves again, sorta like what would've happened had alex joined your team in the beginning of GS2 then left again before you got piers. Defeat does not mean friendship, so only peach joins you when you defeat bowser a quarter of the way through the game, not both peach and bowser (perhaps peach would join you before you beat bowser if she was held in another part of the castle or something, but either way bowser isn't rejoining...).

[Aile~♥]

We could still add a bunch of partner characters and have a second party. That would allow for much better puzzles than the lame kinds in GS.

[Salanewt]

Ah, good old Super Mario RPG music, how I missed thee so much! This sounds nice, but perhaps we should try a remix of the original theme (considering the difference for instruments) using Golden Sun instruments. I would try it out, but I have not done much work with audio.

I am making a Princess Peach portrait now, since I can not find any suitable images with other Yoshi head angles to work with (I found the best image possible, but I can not find it again). She is mainly based on her artwork for Mario and Luigi: Partners in Time, since that was her best face angle for a cartoonized version of her (while also staying away from her Paper selves). I shall also post images of my progress tonight, but I just started (and she now needs a face job, as well as some make-up).

Have a nice day.

Leaf? Seems like a good idea, since they are both usable in at least three games or more. I wonder if Role will agree? That way, Yoshi could double as both a character and as transportation.

Jamie? True, but don't forget that this hack will no longer be Golden Sun, so we could alter the game enough to add new puzzles (like dividing the team).