A present for Sala

[leaf]

@Leaf on Characters:  That's why I originally had Blue Toad and Yellow Toad, you know. Also, I think we should stick with Bowser being the bad guy, and Peach being the one you've gotta save.  The traditional Mario formula.  We should keep that.

Boring. No one would like having two toads as their party members. One toad would be cool if s/he had some actual personality, but two would just be total overkill. And no one cares about an overly simplistic damsel in distress plot. It's trite and overused, and isn't meant to be a plot for a full-blown RPG. The damsel in distress plot is an excuse to send mario collecting 120 stars or going through a bunch of worlds. It is not a plot you should base an RPG on. If you've been following the mario series RPGs at all, you'd notice that bowser is almost never the big bad. There's always some new foe. You almost always have to fight bowser at some point, but there's always something more. There has been all of one mario RPG where bowser has been the big bad, because there just isn't that much you can do story-wise with that plot.

@Leaf on Jump element:  First - we have precedent already.  We have no precedent for star.  Second - Hammers are not an element, they're a WEAPON type.  Look at mario games.  Notice how many different types of jumps they've come up with?  We've got plenty to work with.  Heart won't work as an element, because not only is there really only one person who'd be using it, there's no powerups for it.  For jump, we have:  Kuribo's Shoe, Racoon Leaf, Tanuki Suit, Propeller Shroom, Super Cape, Winged Cap, etc...

Fine. I've more or less come to terms with "jump" as an element. I've seen convincing enough arguments for it. However, the djinn replacement is one I entirely disagree with. You're replacing something that's supposed to be a reusable special ability... with a common single-use item. We can include fire flowers as items, but under no conditions should a fire flower be one of the djinn replacements.

And I already admitted that "heart" was a dumb element.

@Enemies:  Remember that Golden Sun's system allows us to make power and resistance independently, guys.  Nobody really has a focus other than the Main Characters.  Just as Atrius pointed out above, and I've mentioned many, many times.  Goombas should be WEAK TO JUMP.  Because, you know... GOOMBAS.  Flying enemies for the most part as well - Paratroopas, for example.  Meanwhile, you'd have things like Piranha Plants could be weak to fire.  Aquatic foes could be weak to Shock.  Fiery foes, obviously, are weak to water.  But then you've got guys like Shysters, which I doubt have a real weakness.  Others would be quite resistant to attacks - Spineys resist the crap out of Jump, for example.  But does this mean they're weak/strong to the opposite?  Not really.  For starters, there really isn't an opposite element for this.  Goombas are weak to jump, but they're not strong to anything else.  I mean... they're GOOMBAS.  Read:  Koopa canon fodder.

Yeah.

@Bowser is playable idea:  NO.  This has been done at least twice already.  Stop making the Bad guy a good guy.  I know you like the dood, but this really should just have Bowser as the big bad and the Princess as they damsel.  I've said this many times.  We don't want some crazy story, we want a traditional Mario story for this hack.

Who says we don't want a crazy story? The whole point of mario RPGs is that they have a non-traditional (yet ironically formulaic) story. My suggestion was actually for him to be playable but only briefly, not as a permanent party member.

@Yoshi as playable:  Again, NO.  I said that he's transport for a reason that was pointed out - one person per yoshi.  You'll have the main one, then his buddies will carry the other 3.  OR, if y'all REALLY, REALLY hate the advice I gave to keep the party at 4 members, then 7 Yoshis.  But trust me, there's not enough mario characters to pull off an 8 member party.

Who says we even need transport? The only transport GS ever had was the boat. Otherwise, the heroes were all on foot. The only transport any mario RPG has ever had has been mario traveling on the back of yoshi in the paper mario games... where mario only has a single active partner at a time. The only time a non-walking method of transportation has been used is in the case of warp pipes or when a specific storyline event requires it (ie. the mine cart rides in superstar saga or the train in paper mario).

I'm actually not sure where I stand as far as the number of characters go. On the one hand, only four characters would be a lot easier to manage, but if we bumped it up to eight, we'd probably be able to provide a much more interesting plot since we'd be able to use some original characters with actual personality.

@Attack types:  Well, we could have a different animation for "Attack", "Defend", "Cast", "Jump", "Shoot", "Hit", and "Downed".  Attack works just like in GS, and if you equip Gloves, it's unarmed, if you equip hammers, it uses the hammer sprite, etc...  "Defend" sets them up in a defensive pose, if we can do it.  "Cast" works like in SMRPG - they start their abilities with it. "Jump" is exactly what it says on the tin.  "Shoot" is for Fireballs, Iceballs, Beam attacks, etc... "Hit" is when they get hit, "Downed" is KO-ed.

Well that works.

@Leaf's Djinn idea:  WHAT THE HELL DO YOU THINK MY POWERUP IDEA WAS?!  Go back and read the first post, facepalm, and apologize for totally ignoring me.  Stop totally blowing my ideas off - they all have precedent, which is why I use them.  That 'star' idea of yours has none, while my powerup idea has a basis in RECENT Mario games.

@Summons:  ...That's gonna be a problem.  How can we put summons in a Mario game?  Anyone know how we can do this?  Or should we remove summons?  I think we should have them, but I'll need ideas on how to pull it off, since we'll have NO precedent here.  And Leaf... don't just come up with stuff on your own while totally ignoring other people's ideas.

K. I did that. And I facepalmed. No offense, but it was at that idea. Like I said, we should under no circumstances use something so generic for a supposedly rare item, especially when the generic item has already had a well-established effect in the mario RPG universe.

You actually have less precedent than I do. Fire flowers have been traditionally used as items in SMRPG and the paper mario games. M&L is a bit different... they don't appear at all in superstar saga, appear as bros items in partners in time, and then since all bros items were turned into bros attacks again, they appeared as one of the bros attacks in bowser's inside story. That said, there is absolutely no precedent for using fire flowers as a powerup. Or any of the items you suggested for that matter. Anytime mario games have given some kind of special power, it's been with stars. Where's my precedent? SMRPG and the paper mario games, of course! Whenever you obtained a new star (or star crystal) you would get a new "special move" that utilizes star power. These "special moves" were for all intents and purposes equivalent to supers in fighting games, while FP consuming moves were the equivalent to specials. To continue this comparison, in GS, psynergy is comparable to specials, while summons are supers. The way GS activates its supers and the way the paper mario activates its supers are quite different, though, so I tried to bridge a gap between them with this new system. If you wanna try to code a whole new meter into the game and combine djinn and summons into a single command that somehow uses this meter, be my guest. It'd be a whole lot more true to the mario games, anyway. Oh, and let's code in a way to do action commands, too, while we're at it. That's not sarcasm, btw. If we can do it, we should, because there has not been a single mario RPG that has lacked action commands (even if they were called "timed hits" at one point).

Furthermore, class changing is a very foreign mechanic to the mario games to begin with. How you can say my ideas have no precedent when they're based on the concept of combining mario and GS aspects, something you suggested to begin with, while saying your own ideas have precedents is just beyond me. No matter what we do (unless we completely scrap the system GS has, which AFAICT, was not the idea), the end result is gonna be a little bit of mario, a little bit of GS, and a little bit of freestyle.

As for what mario aspects we take... Basically, it all boils down to this: SMRPG was the founder of mario RPGs. It then split into two different series that take certain elements from it but change others. Those two series are of course the paper mario and M&L series. Since we're not really making a paper mario game, and we're not really making an M&L game, either, it seems most appropriate to combine the two again for our "GSMRPG."

[Salanewt]

Piranha Plants could be weak to fire

I just noticed this. For some Piranha Plant variants, this could work. However, there are some that even heal when they are hit with Fire (just wanted to get this out of the way).

Edit: Forgot this before...

The only transport any mario game has ever had has been mario traveling on the back of yoshi in the paper mario games...

Incorrect. The first game to actually introduce Yoshi was Super Mario World, and Mario rode on Yoshi's (or any of his friend Yoshis') backs. Then came Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island. Although you would control the Yoshis, the whole game really consisted of Baby Mario riding Yoshi's back.

Bowser had Chakra in Bowser's Inside Story to allow him to teleport.

Edit 2: Removed some information after reading the rest of that comment.

Boring. No one would like having two toads as their party members.

Yeah, I agree (which is why I posted so earlier on). I do have an idea for one Toad though... Toadsworth? No idea how to make him worthy of being playable, but he could go with the Shock type, since he does go into shock in some games when Peach is kidnapped.

However, the djinn replacement is one I entirely disagree with.

I do have an alternative to this. In the Mario & Luigi games, when you unlock an ability for use on the overworld, you can use it in battle (of course, it has to be an actual ability, not caused by a script on the map). For example, when you unlock Fire and Thunder in Superstar Saga, you can use them both in battle. Similar thing with the Bros. moves. If you learn for example, High Jump, you will unlock "Bounce Bros." as a Bros. Attack. What we could do that is different is to give the player the ability to turn these on or off at the cost of even better abilities (and the better abilities are the summons). To gain these abilities in the first place, there could be a sort of spirit like person to bestow them to somebody (they would mostly bestow an ability based on the character). The only problem with this is that you would have to disable being able to trade them to other people, which could disable getting multiple classes.

Eg; cancel Spin Jump and Fireball, and you can use Spin-flame, or even to cancel any other Jump or Fire abilities to get this (as well as a few other related ones). How we make the special "x-djinn" abilities usable out of battle, is that we make it so enabling one of them is like bestowing the ability, and you can use it in the old psynergy interface (of course, this should only be done with a few of them, just so it is not too difficult to decide when they should be used in puzzles).

Well, this is my idea on an alternative to x-djinn items. If you like it, that if fine. If not, then "oh well", but at least I put it out on the drawing board.

Have a nice day.

[leaf]

Incorrect. The first game to actually introduce Yoshi was Super Mario World, and Mario rode on Yoshi's (or any of his friend Yoshis') backs. Then came Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island. Although you would control the Yoshis, the whole game really consisted of Baby Mario riding Yoshi's back.

Not to mention the train from Paper Mario 2 (and also Paper Mario for N64, both of which you would ride but not control), and Warp Pipes... Although that is more of a teleportation. Oh, and Bowser had Chakra in Bowser's Inside Story to allow him to teleport. There is also the plane in Super Mario Sunshine and in Superstar Saga, although that is more or less a story thing, since you can never actually use them yourself.

If you reread my post, you'll see I've already covered all those points.... except the first one. That was a typo. It was supposed to say "The only transport any mario RPG has ever had has been mario traveling on the back of yoshi in the paper mario games..." Gonna go edit that. Anyway, I then went on to explain that storyline travel or stuff like the train in paper mario don't count, and I mentioned warp pipes, too. My point was that there is no form of transportation outside of yoshi that mario just gets on and rides wherever, and the only time he's done that is in the paper mario games where he can swap partners out, so there doesn't need to be more than one yoshi. Other than that, mario and whoever he's traveling with is always on foot.

I do have an alternative to this. In the Mario & Luigi games, when you unlock an ability for use on the overworld, you can use it in battle (of course, it has to be an actual ability, not caused by a script on the map). For example, when you unlock Fire and Thunder in Superstar Saga, you can use them both in battle. Similar thing with the Bros. moves. If you learn for example, High Jump, you will unlock "Bounce Bros." as a Bros. Attack. What we could do that is different is to give the player the ability to turn these on or off at the cost of even better abilities (and the better abilities are the summons). To gain these abilities in the first place, there could be a sort of spirit like person to bestow them to somebody (they would mostly bestow an ability based on the character). The only problem with this is that you would have to disable being able to trade them to other people, which could disable getting multiple classes.

Eg; cancel Spin Jump and Fireball, and you can use Spin-flame, or even to cancel any other Jump or Fire abilities to get this (as well as a few other related ones). How we make the special "x-djinn" abilities usable out of battle, is that we make it so enabling one of them is like bestowing the ability, and you can use it in the old psynergy interface (of course, this should only be done with a few of them, just so it is not too difficult to decide when they should be used in puzzles).

Well, this is my idea on an alternative to x-djinn items. If you like it, that if fine. If not, then "oh well", but at least I put it out on the drawing board.

Well, I think this would be the best method to do it if we were gonna say "screw it" to classes. If we're going to keep classes, though, it wouldn't make much sense to have someone teach a character some specific move and then suddenly it changes to something completely different when you change classes. And I'm not entirely sure much I like the idea of disabling something you know how to do so you can do a more complex move. If you're an ice skater and you're practicing a triple axle and get it down pat, you don't suddenly forget how to do a double axle, even though the triple is more complicated.

[Aile~♥]

I'mma post my wall-of-text idea now:

We have four attack types: Jump, Shock, Fire, and Ice. We also have Role's powerup sets, instead of Djinn. Guarding the power ups, since you can't fight an item, we have: Hammer Bros. (Jump), Fire Bros. (Exactly What it Says on the Tin), Ice Bros. (again Exactly What it Says on the Tin), Boomerang Bros. (Shock). Powerups boost the Type Level for their type, increasing Affinity and Type Defence as well.

For the party, we have a total of 8 party members, starting with just 2, Mario (Fire) and Luigi (Jump). We'd then get our first one-off partner character we create for this game, probably either the Ice or Shock one, leaving us with 3 party members. After a bit more adventuring, we get another one-off partner character (Shock if the first was Ice, Ice if the first was Shock), leaving us with 4 party members. If we decide that Peach getting captured isn't the main point (and that we can find good attacks for her), we'd get her around now if she were to be a party member (Jump, probably, perhaps Shock). Otherwise, we'd get someone else, like maybe DK (Jump maybe also? I'd prefer Fire, but then we'd have too many Fire party members). Now we'd have 5 party members. Over a while we'd get another two partners, (Jump and Fire), and then after them we'd get the last two "storyline" characters, right near the end of the game. Technically, we could have Bowser as a temporary party member while still having 8 permanent ones: Just create a trigger that causes switch in sprite and name, while storing the previous name in memory, and changes their type affinity so they have a massive Fire element level, like 20 or something, and create a class specifically for Bowser that has massively powerful stats and skills.

Basically, at the beginning the Bros. and Bowser end up about to fight each other, like leaf said, then cue epic interruption by a third party, and Bowser and the Bros. being forced to team up. (Bowser'd actually be the Fire partner character, except with a name swap, type affinity change, and sprite swap caused by a storyline flag), and then once they get out of that area, Bowser turns on them, (he'd have like, 1999 HP), cue hopeless boss fight, Bowser crushes them in like, one hit, steals some important object and runs off. Then, someone else steals it off of him, does some evil stuff with it, making you fight a ton of bosses to get their macguffin thingies, and loses it. Then in the middle of this nonsense, Bowser steals Peach or something (Princess with magical powers excuse again), and then at the end gets the important item again, and starts using it to terrorise the landscape and the people on it. The player's party gets to Bowser, and they discover that Peach is captured, and try to get her back, cue fight against Bowser (still with his old 1999 HP) (false final battle), then Bowser uses the important item and all of Peach's magic to transform into Giga Bowser, and then you have to blow him up.

Ability shops: Across your travels through the Mushroom Kingdom and the surrounding lands, you'll find Shine Sprites and Stars in treasure chests and other similar locations. There are also magicians who'll use Stars and Shine Sprites to give characters new abilities. Of particular note, however, is that all these magicians will mention being a relative of Merline (Paper Mario 2 reference). Shine give battle abilities, and there are 32 Shines in the game. Stars give utility skills, and there'd be, say, 15 of them?

[Salanewt]

Well, then they do not have to be disabled. Either that, or like being an ice skater. You start out with those abilities, then finish with the upgraded move after having used the previous ones. Of course, it would be like that one idea you suggested, where they can't be changed out of battle.

Also, I did reread that comment, and I removed some of what I said. However, it looks like the edit did not show until after you posted.

Have a nice day.

Jamie... A lot of that seems good, but I am not a big fan of one-off characters, even if we are creating new ones (unless that is what every usable character is, and mostly based on already existing Mario enemies/characters (like having Gombert and Toadrielle, as two examples)).

Still not sure, if both Shines and Stars are included, that they should at all be related. In my opinion, Shines can give abilities, but Stars should unlock other things, like areas (which can include shops that have abilities for sale, requiring the Shines).


Have a nice day.

[Aile~♥]

I essentially did make it unlock areas, but through new utility skills, which are used to get to new areas.

[Salanewt]

Hello. Atrius mentioned something about not requiring a full team of 8 members if you do have more than four, so I have an idea...

We can have less than 8 characters (or up to 8, but picking characters might get tricky). A maximum of four characters can go in the first team, and the rest are on a reserve team, similar to how it is in Golden Sun. However, if your main team dies, it is Game Over (your other partners will not come in), and only the participating members can get experience. This way, players will be encouraged to go to previous areas to train on their new characters (and they can also go ahead and do some mini-quests when they get a new member too).

As for the "teams should be balanced, two of each type affinity total" rule... Who not alter it? For example, Mario can have a Jump level of 3 and a Fire of 2, or Luigi can have Jump 4 and Shock 1. This is the nice thing about those element levels. The way they are built, they can easily be changed so their affinity is not always 5 (right Atrius?).

Have a nice day.

[leaf]

Sala... that's brilliant. It's so simple, but none of us thought of it. Not having characters being strictly aligned with a single element in their base class is an idea of pure genius.

I also agree with the game over thing, although I disagree with the part about experience.

[Atrius (He/Him)]

As for the "teams should be balanced, two of each type affinity total" rule... Who not alter it? For example, Mario can have a Jump level of 3 and a Fire of 2, or Luigi can have Jump 4 and Shock 1. This is the nice thing about those element levels. The way they are built, they can easily be changed so their affinity is not always 5 (right Atrius?).

Absolutely, don't limit yourselves to thinking you have to do everything the same way Golden Sun did.

[Salanewt]

I also agree with the game over thing, although I disagree with the part about experience.

You might be right about the experience thing. However, it should be less than those who actually participate in the battle (maybe the other characters only gain 1/3 of the experience, while those participating get a full reward). This way, they gain experience, but will make players more likely to train on them if they want a balanced team. Thanks!

Sounds good Atrius, thanks.

Now, any more ideas? Lets see... Nope, not yet. More ideas will probably come soon though.

Have a nice day.

[leaf]

I think I have a solid idea on how I would do this battle system now. I'll have to post it sometime that I'm not procrastinating on an essay, though.

[Salanewt]

Sounds good.

Oh yes, I have some ideas for music that can be included in the hack, both from Mario & Luigi games. One of the battle themes could possibly give Golden Sun's Doom Dragon theme a run for its money (though that is only because I like the instruments used).

Links to some songs... Later, I will try to redo them in Golden Sun's instruments, although I need to practice first, probably with some of the unused audio in Mario Bros.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87Lzd724YcY = Final Boss theme of Bowser's Inside Story. This would be neat for this hack, wouldn't it?

Have a nice day.

[Rolina]

Wait wait... Did leaf just say that I have no precedent... with Fire Flowers?

Weren't they there since the original Super Mario Bros?

[Aile~♥]

Not only that, but the Volt Shroom is specifically a power-up, it renders characters electrified, causing enemies to be damaged on contact.

[leaf]

Wait wait... Did leaf just say that I have no precedent... with Fire Flowers?

Weren't they there since the original Super Mario Bros?

Doesn't matter where they're originally from when they've been used as generic items in every mario RPG they've been in so far with the exception of bowser's inside story (again, because bros items were returned to being bros attacks). Precedent within a sub-series overrides precedent in the overarching series when you're making a game for the sub-series.

[Salanewt]

Doesn't matter where they're originally from when they've been used as generic items in every mario RPG they've been in so far with the exception of bowser's inside story (again, because bros items were returned to being bros attacks).

They were not used in Super Mario RPG, or Super Paper Mario (not so much an RPG, but it did have some of the same concepts and items from its prequels), and not in Superstar Saga.

Edit: Sorry, I misread that part of the comment.

Anyway, powerups seem like a good idea, but it may get boring if the player only finds one item type, with the same name and effect (at least with djinn, they had different names and effects).

Edit: Some character ideas...

If anyone else agrees to this list...

Mario > Luigi > Peach > Yoshi > DK > Daisy > Toadsworth > Rosalina

Basically, depending on how many characters there are, you can use this list (obviously, the last three are the most interchangeable). As you go down, you remove the character furthest to the right (meaning that generally, the characters closer to the left would be more likely than the ones on the right). I do agree that Yoshi should be transport, but he has played some pretty neat roles which Mario has not done (like being able to tilt the terrain to make things move). DK makes a good cameo, but I do seem to remember things like the Golden Bananas, and the Banana Fairies (I have not played many of the newer DK games, but I would like to try at least one).

We should try something new than stealing Bananas though... Perhaps one or two of DK's friends or family (it would be a funny twist if his girlfriend were kidnapped, instead of Peach)? Then again, if he is only a cameo, something similar to this could happen (which would be the cause of him appearing as a cameo in the first place).

Have a nice day.

[Rolina]

Wait wait... Did leaf just say that I have no precedent... with Fire Flowers?

Weren't they there since the original Super Mario Bros?

Doesn't matter where they're originally from when they've been used as generic items in every mario RPG they've been in so far with the exception of bowser's inside story (again, because bros items were returned to being bros attacks). Precedent within a sub-series overrides precedent in the overarching series when you're making a game for the sub-series.

As I said before:  You need to not look only at Mario RPGs.  Instead, look at all Mario games.  Like how I mixed the Mario Strikers with the SMRPG earlier.  Any powerup ever gained is something we can look at.  Any character ever introduced is a character we can look at.  Anything and everything is something we can consider.  I'm NOT saying we have to use everything, but we shouldn't limit ourselves to just the RPGs.  If we do that, this game will suffer as a result.

That's why I've said that we should have a classic Mario scenario:  Bowser kidnaps Peach, Mario goes to kick his @#$% and get her back.  We want to make a traditional Mario Game here, only use the Classic RPG genre instead of the Platformer genre (OR, in the case of paper mario games, Action RPG).  A scenario that's traditionally Mario, characters that have the Mario feel, terms, power ups, and weapons that are reminiscent of Mario...  Any Mario Game is up for grabs.

Now... If we do 5 or 6 characters, rather than having one or two of each element/type/whatever you wanna call it, then we need to find out how to do them.  Perhaps one has no element, or one is pure physical or something.

[Salanewt]

Now... If we do 5 or 6 characters, rather than having one or two of each element/type/whatever you wanna call it, then we need to find out how to do them.  Perhaps one has no element, or one is pure physical or something.

Well, I already have some ideas for mixing elements, and possibly allowing the player to change them to get different classes (as opposed to items, power-ups, etc.). I made a more detailed post a while back explaining what we could do for a few things.

Mario, instead of being 5 Fire, should be something like 3 Jump and 2 Fire (after all, he is credited for being the best jumper, even better than Luigi).
Luigi can be 4 Jump, 1 Shock (yet has more of a "drift" effect than Mario, so I suppose he is really good (good enough to not be able to control it well)).

And... Until we can decide which other characters to have, I should not change any more (though for the heck of it, Yoshi can have 3 Jump, 1 Fire, and 1 Water/Ice).

Have a nice day.

[Aile~♥]

Congratulations Role, you've just created an idea for the least popular RPG in the universe!

I mean, with a "story" like that, no one would play it, EVER!

My theory is that you're just crazy.

[leaf]

Wait wait... Did leaf just say that I have no precedent... with Fire Flowers?

Weren't they there since the original Super Mario Bros?

Doesn't matter where they're originally from when they've been used as generic items in every mario RPG they've been in so far with the exception of bowser's inside story (again, because bros items were returned to being bros attacks). Precedent within a sub-series overrides precedent in the overarching series when you're making a game for the sub-series.

As I said before:  You need to not look only at Mario RPGs.  Instead, look at all Mario games.  Like how I mixed the Mario Strikers with the SMRPG earlier.  Any powerup ever gained is something we can look at.  Any character ever introduced is a character we can look at.  Anything and everything is something we can consider.  I'm NOT saying we have to use everything, but we shouldn't limit ourselves to just the RPGs.  If we do that, this game will suffer as a result.

That's why I've said that we should have a classic Mario scenario:  Bowser kidnaps Peach, Mario goes to kick his @#$% and get her back.  We want to make a traditional Mario Game here, only use the Classic RPG genre instead of the Platformer genre (OR, in the case of paper mario games, Action RPG).  A scenario that's traditionally Mario, characters that have the Mario feel, terms, power ups, and weapons that are reminiscent of Mario...  Any Mario Game is up for grabs.

Now... If we do 5 or 6 characters, rather than having one or two of each element/type/whatever you wanna call it, then we need to find out how to do them.  Perhaps one has no element, or one is pure physical or something.

Sounds like we have a fundamental disagreement on what kind of game this should be. I was taking this as a mario RPG, done in the mario RPG style with mario RPG premises. Not as a mario game that just happens to have RPG elements. Like I said before, the classic mario scenario has been used repeatedly, and thus isn't interesting anymore. If I was an executive at nintendo, and you brought a full proposal for this whole new spin-off of the mario RPG series, the choice of plot (and choice of characters if you had somehow managed to keep the two toads as the partners for that long) would be a major point of contention that you'd be told to go back to the drawing boards for. Even if everything else was amazing, by ignoring such a key part of the medium your proposal would get denied.

An RPG has a lot more room to play around with its plot than traditional mario games do. There are already mario games that have no choice but to use that plot in order to remain seamless. Traditional 2D and traditional 3D mario both make liberal use of this plot because it's all they need to make a good game. Without having to worry about the tangles of plot, it allows the developers to focus entirely on the gameplay. The developers know that it's the gameplay in these games that matters, even if the plot is only loosely hinged together. When a person sits down to play one of these games, they expect a new take on and new challenges based in classic gameplay. They do not expect for any kind of significant plot development. In fact, if these games were to have a more involved plot, it would take away from the main draw of them - the gameplay.

But... when a person sits down to play a mario RPG, they expect more than just a new take on classic gameplay. They expect a new plot, too. In fact, if anything, they expect the gameplay to be more or less the same within a given spin-off series, where the focal difference is in the plot. What changes in M&L? In PiT, you had four characters instead of two. In BII, you could control bowser in addition to the bros. Oh, and the effects of equipment change from game to game. That's the extent of the new innovation in regard to gameplay. Bros items were introduced as a replacement to bros points in PiT, but that got reverted back to the original point system in BII, presumably due to bros items being received poorly. PiT also changed from having a world to explore to having a sort of hub, which was also reverted back to a full world to explore in BII. Then we have the paper mario series. The original paper mario and paper mario TTYD used more or less identical battle systems, with the only major innovation introduced in TTYD being the addition of superguarding. New equipment was introduced and you gained some new abilities, but the biggest change to the gameplay actually came in the form of the type of puzzles you solved, due to having a different selection of partner powers. And naturally, every game has had different enemies to give new experiences without having to change the way battle works. Then we get to paper mario wii. People were thrown off by paper mario wii so much because the developers completely threw away the gameplay formula that had defined the paper mario games and replaced it with a platformer. What it did not throw away, however, was the storyline and plot we've come to expect from a mario RPG. Even though in gameplay it was a platformer, it told the story as if it was a true mario RPG. Had it used the same old generic plot used in NSMBW, the game would not have been anywhere near as interesting, because while players expect consistent gameplay, they demand a storyline that is characteristic of a mario RPG, which while somewhat formulaic, is what truly offers the sense of the game feeling fresh.

If you actually care about making a good game, you'll stop insisting we use such a basic premise.

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As far as taking inspiration from the mario series as a whole... well duh! Of course we should be taking inspiration for stuff from everywhere we can get. But we can't ignore already established foundations of the mario RPGs. In fact, now that I think about it, if we can't implement some kind of action commands system, this should be scrapped entirely, because it won't feel like a mario RPG if there aren't action commands.