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Author Topic: Golden Sun Empires - system development thread  (Read 15882 times)
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Rolina
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« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2010, 04:11:17 PM »

We'll do that when we finalize the system.  A nice, easy to understand version will be posted over in the RPG section for everyone to read.  Right now, though we're still just posting whatever ideas come to mind, so... if we summarize everything, it still is subject to change (and thus having the summary not represent everything like it's supposed to).  Also, this is GAME statistics.  We've been trying to tell Charon we're separating the Game and Forum statistics.  No word yet on if they understand.  Personally, I think forum stats should be determined by post count, while being BASED upon the Game stats.  However, the Level and Tier of play is decided at Game Start, and is independent of forum stats.  In other words:  There is no leveling up or experience in the game itself, but POST COUNT would easily fit as the experience for the forums.  I still think we should go back to Reputation shops, not the experience shops...

Basically, rename the Post Count field the Experience field, and BAM, there you go.  All that's left is to code the stat form, which I figure should be easy enough.  All you have to do is make the code for what would be the skeleton.  It'd take the values you insert, plug them in and do the rest.  The actual levels will have to be determined by a formula for experience - I'd say you'd hit 99 at around 50,000 posts, which should give the two of us plenty of time to level.  Obviously, it takes more experience to get from one level to the next, so there'd understandably be a formula for that too.  Anywho, all we'd need is the stat values for the level targets, the names and  stat modifiers for the class tiers, a option to change the number of djinni a person has purchased via reputation (thus determining which class tier is reflected in the stats and displayed - basically, the class tier would replace where it says "Miracle Member" for me), and a form to select whether the member is a Clan Leader, Clan Second, Clan Member, or Generic (non-clanned member).  Shouldn't be too hard at all.



I've got an idea, though I'm not sure how it'll fly.  There's certain psynergy categories that cannot be used by other move groups.  For example, top-tier psynergy like Fume and Annihilation (as well as other multipliers) would be exclusive to Heavy (Movement 3) characters.  On the other hand, certain buffs, debuffs, and ailments would be exclusive to Scout (Movement 5) characters.  Some skills would be exclusive to Light (Movement 4) characters as well.  Here's what I've got in terms of categories:

Weak Spells
Mid-Weak Spells
Mid Spells
Mid-Strong Spells
Strong Spells
Grand Spells

Elemental Physicals
Elite Physicals

Basic Buffs
Advanced Buffs

Basic Debuffs
Advanced Debuffs

Ailments
Advanced Ailments

Single Healing
Group Healing
Ailment Healing

Other


Obviously, this can easily be expanded upon.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2010, 06:40:13 PM by Role » Logged

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leaf
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« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2010, 07:32:07 PM »

I think that would only really work out if we dropped the clan separations (and defeat the whole point of clan wars). While I may have suggested that certain weapons be restricted based on movement level, that's for the purpose of balancing range of attack. If someone wants to put all their best support stuff on a 3 move unit, I say let them. Just because support stuff would generally be most useful on high move units, doesn't mean that low move units should just not be able to use them at all.
Logged

Spoiler for quotes:
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O
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Rolina
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Posts: 6051

« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2010, 04:11:12 AM »

I dunno, I can see it working quite well if we can do it right.  Either way, though, we still need to have those fields.  We don't want someone stuffing all the strongest psynergies in their class.
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« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2010, 08:29:24 PM »

Why not? There will only ever be 2, maybe 3 offensive spells any clan will ever use. A single-target (if they get one), a multi-target, and a slightly weaker multi-target to finish low HP foes without having to expend the full cost of the first multi-target spell. If someone stuffs more psynergy than they need in their build, well... that's the player's fault, not ours.

Anyway, a few ideas I had that I wanted to bring up (or bring up again):

It's not impaling, just clever aim: Spears and scythes can target two spaces away even if something is in the way.
No friendly fire: Mages will not harm their teammates by casting area psys.

These two pretty much need to happen to make some of the other stuff I'm gonna be suggesting work.

Counters: Every unit gets one counterattack. Mages could counterattack using a single-target 0 PP version of their strongest spell. However, any damage dealt by this 0 PP spell would be halved. This attack would also be available on the player's turn, mostly to be used as a ranged finisher against a low HP foe. Whether a physical or magical counterattack is used by a unit is determined by the player when they end their turn, so mages still have access to physical counterattacks and warriors have access to magical counterattacks. However, whichever is selected must be the only counterattack used for the duration of your opponent's turn. You do not get the ability to choose once your opponent's turn begins.

Supports: If two units are stationed directly next to each other (not diagonally) and are both in range of the attacker's target, a passive unit may aid the attacker and attack as well, without using up their action for the turn (even if said unit has already acted). The supporting unit's attack will only be a basic attack - one that it's capable of using when counterattacking. Up to 4 units may support at one time, but if the foe survives, they will be able to counterattack the original attacker and all supporting units.

Sieges: By surrounding an opponent and attacking all at once, you can cut off a foe's ability to counterattack. Participating in a siege will use up that unit's action for the turn, unlike supports, and any attack may be used (even area psynergy, which will be centered on the foe being sieged). Depending on the type of siege, you can also boost damage dealt, and the damage bonus will be extended to all targets of an area psynergy, even if they were not originally in the line of the siege. A siege requires one of the following: 1) flanking an opponent from both sides, which gives a 10% damage bonus, 2) approaching from both the front and back, which also gives a 10% damage bonus, 3) surrounding the foe on any three sides, which gives a 20% damage bonus, or 4) surrounding the foe on all 4 sides, which gives a 40% damage bonus. You cannot initiate a siege by attacking from just the back and side, or front and side; at least two of the participating units must be directly across from one another. Furthermore, if there are additional units within the line of the siege (for example, 2 units in front of a foe and 1 unit behind it), they can participate as well, but it will not count as a support if they do.

You'll notice sieges and supports are sort of designed to balance each other out. While you might be able to get many attacks each turn with supports, you'll be wrecked by area psynergies, especially if the foe can set up a siege and get the damage bonus on them. But if you aim to split up your troops for the purpose of setting up a siege, you'll be easier to pick off one by one, or even get sieged yourself. Both options carry their own risk and reward.

I'll post more as I think of stuff.

edit: I knew I was forgetting something!

Commanders: The number of commanders a clan may have is equal to the number of members in the largest clan. This means that clans with fewer members will have at least a couple NPCs with stats comparable to a member.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2010, 08:45:43 PM by leafgreen386 » Logged

Spoiler for quotes:
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O
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Rolina
The Fulminous Witch
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Posts: 6051

« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2010, 06:51:04 AM »

Why not? Well, just like in the original games, we should have them balance their psynergy.  That way, they at least have a good rate of spell gain, rather than having a ton of spells gained every ten to twenty levels.  If we have a limit of power, we get the stacking effect of the previous games, which will make things way more interesting, don't you think?



@Commanders:  Er, no?  I was thinking the average number, not the equal number.  That way we all have an equal number of units, and can keep generic units to a minimum for the other clans.  I thought we agreed on this.  After all, otherwise Venus has a crapload of Units that aren't generic, and everyone else is at a disadvantage.  After all, UNLIKE generics, Character members are much more varied and customized.
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JamietheFlameUser
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« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2010, 06:05:22 PM »

Allow me to ask, what the heck is the point of having a separate experience system, with level-ups and items, for the forums if we aren't using it for an RPG? I mean, it's just over-complicating things.

And Role, on the subject of Commanders, Leaf said that every clan should have a number of commanders equal to the number of members of the largest clan. So that way, all clans have the same number of commanders, and thus the same number of troops. Although, this does create the problem of having an NPC as a commander, so someone will have to fill in.

And I can't say I agree with having Annihilation limited to the low-MOV characters. If anything, it should be limited to the high-MOV ones. I mean, it is a Ninja tech, after all, and ninjas are known for being fast. Overall, limiting who can have which Psys based on MOV values has no effect other than limiting customization. It doesn't contribute to character balance overall from what I can see.

Now on to a more recent topic: Psynergies. People won't go for the strongest Psys. They'll go for one strong, one weak, and one single-target, along with a few EPAs. That way, they don't have to spend a huge amount of points on Psys and can instead invest in stats. At least, that's how I understood the system was going to work, based what was said earlier.
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Genis: Sweet!
Presea: ...Sweetie pie...
Zelos: Let's not start on this again...

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« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2010, 07:30:53 PM »

Why not? Well, just like in the original games, we should have them balance their psynergy.  That way, they at least have a good rate of spell gain, rather than having a ton of spells gained every ten to twenty levels.  If we have a limit of power, we get the stacking effect of the previous games, which will make things way more interesting, don't you think?
Please shut up with the level talk. There isn't going to be a leveling system, and we're not using the same units every game if we do ever play with different levels. What we should be doing is focusing purely on the stats that will be used for the first round, regardless of what level they might represent in GS, and assume that all tiers of psynergy will be playable. We can redo the system later for use with different levels. If it makes you feel better, we can work the stats assuming a level 59 game.

Quote
@Commanders:  Er, no?  I was thinking the average number, not the equal number.  That way we all have an equal number of units, and can keep generic units to a minimum for the other clans.  I thought we agreed on this.  After all, otherwise Venus has a crapload of Units that aren't generic, and everyone else is at a disadvantage.  After all, UNLIKE generics, Character members are much more varied and customized.
Well, we didn't agree. Jamie understands what I meant. The point is to give every clan the same number of commanders and the same number of generics. Even if some of those commanders are technically NPCs that have to be controlled by another clan member, it's better than starting everyone off unevenly, and it's better than depriving some of those in venus clan of their own commander.

Although what did you think of the other stuff I suggested? We're also going to need to figure out exactly how to do the stat customization system, and how picking out psynergies will fit in there. I'll work on that some this week, I guess.

edit: Also, I might be inclined to go with your turn-based world phase. However, units should be healed for all of their HP/PP between rounds, where a round is defined as all four clans having taken their turn. Between each clan's turn, units should have a certain percentage of their HP and PP healed (perhaps 20%). You've gotta keep in mind, when mages are relying on 30-40 PP moves to deal the bulk of their damage, they're going to be burning through PP very quickly. I really would rather PP only be a limiting factor for each individual battle, since it wouldn't be too far-fetched for a mage to blow through their entire PP reserve in a single battle if you're dealing with someone positioning their units well when you both have healing. Although if PP was completely restored between turns, you may as well restore HP, too, since clans that have healing could just spam their healing moves at the start of a battle for nearly no cost.

edit2: Considering we're already adding stuff like spears and scythes, how about we also add bows as a weapon type? It's clear that the bow and arrow at least exist in GS's era, even if no character used it in battle. Can't hit lv1, hits lv2+3. Does not use up ammo.

Additionally, I figure psynergy range+movement range should total 6 or maybe 7. That way, move 5 units only get to hit right next to them (or up to 2 spaces away if the total is 7), move 4 units can hit up to 2 spaces away (or 3), and move 3 can hit up to 3 spaces away (or 4). Which we go with simply depends on what is done with physicals to keep them up to par. If the total is 6, physicals probably won't need too much of a buff to keep them equal. If the total is 7, well, we'll just have to get creative =p

@Jamie: I've got no fricking clue why we have an experience system on the forums. Bring it up with charon?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 08:29:11 PM by leafgreen386 » Logged

Spoiler for quotes:
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O
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JamietheFlameUser
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« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2010, 08:43:29 PM »

I would say that Bows need to be able to hit more than level 2-3. Maybe a stat set like this:

Bow: Atk: 70%, Mind: 0%, Range 2-4? Or perhaps Atk: 60%, Mind: 10%, Range 2-4? Given the range of Psynergy, a bow should have similarly high range.

And actually, attack range is one of the inherent advantages of having high movement. A character like a scout is actually quite likely to wield a long-range weapon to cover up for their overall fragility. So having an overall "total" for Psynergy and attack range means that everyone will just go with a slow character: they have higher stats and can hit the same distance away from them overall. I suppose on the other hand, if there ISN'T a limiter for characters' attack range, everyone will just go for a fast character and use their ridiculous range to their advantage.
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Genis: Sweet!
Presea: ...Sweetie pie...
Zelos: Let's not start on this again...

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« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2010, 09:02:06 PM »

Well, sorta. I was thinking that support/healing spells would have a static range, regardless of the spell range of the caster, so high move units would be the best supporters, even though they get countered by everything and have the worst stats overall, while lower move units are better for actually going on the offensive, since they'd typically be bulkier and share the same offensive range. There's also supports and sieges, which require specific positioning, where high move units will shine.

And you might be right on giving bows 2-4 range, although it'd need to be restricted to move 3 units. Maybe have two types of bows, one for move 4 units which has 2-3 range, and one for move 3 units which has 2-4 range. We'll have to see what happens once we start working out the details of the customization system.

edit: Or maybe also add bows with 3-5 range for move 3 and 3-4 range for move 4, and I suppose give move 5 units the choice of either a range 2 or range 3 bow that can only hit at that range. Although that might be a bit overkill with 2 types of bows for each movement level. I'll have to draft out what the basic weapons would give at each move level... I'll update with that shortly.

edit2: Gonna move this to another post now that role's posted.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 10:57:49 PM by leafgreen386 » Logged

Spoiler for quotes:
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O
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Rolina
The Fulminous Witch
Jupiter Clan

Template maker turned lurker

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I am: wondering if we can get our clan position changed...
Clan Position: Grand Overlady of Jupiter
Posts: 6051

« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2010, 10:12:50 PM »

Allow me to ask, what the heck is the point of having a separate experience system, with level-ups and items, for the forums if we aren't using it for an RPG? I mean, it's just over-complicating things.
 Are you stupid?  We already said why - so we have an even playing field.  Otherwise it'll be the clan with the overall highest reputation that wins, which is really unfair.

Quote
And Role, on the subject of Commanders, Leaf said that every clan should have a number of commanders equal to the number of members of the largest clan. So that way, all clans have the same number of commanders, and thus the same number of troops. Although, this does create the problem of having an NPC as a commander, so someone will have to fill in.
Are you stupid?  I've already said why.  Character players have customized characters, and that gives them a clear advantage on the battlefield.  The less members a clan has with the "largest" system, the more of a disadvantage it is at.  This decision was made for balancing purposes, and over IRC me and Leaf had AGREED upon this prior to him posting that BS.  I don't know what got into him. >_>

By the way, where the hell were you in IRC?  Oh right, you WEREN'T.  Too bad, looks like your say isn't apparently very welcome here.

Quote
And I can't say I agree with having Annihilation limited to the low-MOV characters. If anything, it should be limited to the high-MOV ones. I mean, it is a Ninja tech, after all, and ninjas are known for being fast. Overall, limiting who can have which Psys based on MOV values has no effect other than limiting customization. It doesn't contribute to character balance overall from what I can see.
Are you stupid?   Then the Scout-type characters become BROKEN.  What was that about the Master class?  Oh, right, BROKEN AS FREAKING HELL.  We're trying to have at least SOME semblance of balance here.  Otherwise it's just a blitz to victory - first to get in range to unleash their ubers wins.

Quote
Now on to a more recent topic: Psynergies. People won't go for the strongest Psys. They'll go for one strong, one weak, and one single-target, along with a few EPAs. That way, they don't have to spend a huge amount of points on Psys and can instead invest in stats. At least, that's how I understood the system was going to work, based what was said earlier.
Are you stupid?  Never underestimate the stupidity of humanity.  Who's the one with GM (not Global Mod - GAME MASTER) experience here?  If they can exploit it, they WILL exploit it.  You have to set up the system in a way that prevents them from doing that and at least offers SOME form of balanced gameplay.

@Leaf:  I'm still iffy on bows.  In a game where everyone's a caster, there really isn't any need for archers.  Especially since they can't get in range without fearing casting retaliation...
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« Reply #40 on: July 18, 2010, 11:09:56 PM »

Role, stop calling jamie stupid. He brings up valid points. Points which you aren't listening to.

His complaint with the forums having an experience system was just that we have an experience system for no good reason. Not saying that we should use it for the clan wars.

For commanders, I already told you. NPCs can be commanders, too, which will even the playing field. We never agreed to set the number of commanders as the average number of members in each clan. That was your own idea that we never even discussed in the IRC. Go back and read my posts if you want to know the rationale for why we would make NPC commanders, because I'm not gonna rehash the same argument again for you to ignore it... again.

Stop telling people that they should've been in the IRC. It was done on very short notice and not a whole lot of preparation went into it. We can have more meetings, too. You're just being obnoxious at this point.

And you completely misunderstood what jamie was saying on psynergies, because it's exactly the same thing I've been saying. No one who knows how to play games like this is going to just stuff their moveset with a bunch of spells. It's a waste, since it just ends up being redundant. You'd opt for a powerful spell, a weaker spell that costs less (to finish weakened foes without expending extra PP), a single-target (if available), and maybe an EPA. If it costs points to get new psynergies, you wouldn't ever wanna waste them. What he was saying had nothing to do with something being exploitable. In fact, he was thinking specifically how to make the most of the system.

---

Anyway, here's a first draft of weapon types for each movement level. Bonuses can be given to any stats, and are applied as part of the class modifiers. Remember that the base limits for stats are 70%-140%. I'm not entirely sure how this should work in with that just yet, but eh... we'll see. Also, note that "Range" refers to physical range only. And role, please try to keep at least a somewhat open mind for this.

Move 5 weapons: All have Psynergy Range 1 unless otherwise noted.
Light Blade - Range 1. Gives no bonus.
Scythe - Range 1-2. Gives -60% bonus.
Mace - Range 1. Gives Psynergy Range 1-2. Gives -30% bonus.
Short Bow - Range 2. Gives -30% bonus.
Short Crossbow - Range 3. Gives -40% bonus.

Move 4 weapons: All have Psynergy Range 1-2 unless otherwise noted.
Long Sword - Range 1. Gives +30% bonus.
Spear - Range 1-2. Gives -30% bonus.
Staff - Range 1. Gives Psynergy Range 1-3. Gives no bonus.
Bow - Range 2-3. Gives -30% bonus.
Crossbow - Range 3-4. Gives -40% bonus.

Move 3 weapons: All have Psynergy Range 1-3 unless otherwise noted.
Axe - Range 1. Gives +60% bonus.
Halberd - Range 1-2. Gives no bonus.
Ankh - Range 1. Gives Psynergy Range 1-4. Gives +30% bonus.
Long Bow - Range 2-4. Gives -30% bonus.
Long Crossbow - Range 3-5. Gives -40% bonus.

There. Definitely needs more work, but that should give a general idea. Oh, and just because everyone's a caster, doesn't mean everyone casts equally. Unless you want to go back to base damage psynergy, that is, but it seems you have a hatred for that. For the record, I'm perfectly fine with base damage psynergy. It just means you need to balance it in a different way.

Also, role, could you go back and lemme know what you think of my counter, support, and siege systems?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 11:15:29 PM by leafgreen386 » Logged

Spoiler for quotes:
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O
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Rolina
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« Reply #41 on: July 18, 2010, 11:53:52 PM »

I really don't like that system, leaf.  As I said before, bows are useless in a game where everyone's a caster, since they're supposed to stay out of the range of others.  That system also makes it pointless to be a caster if you're a MOV5 unit - what's the point of casting a spell if you can only do it two spaces ahead?  Furthermore, look at casters in general - they can all reach the same panel with their spells.  That makes Forward Mages useless and Grand Mages broken, since when everything is said and done, everyone has the same range.

Rather, I think range should be determined by the ability you're using, not be the weapon.  Only the normal attack range and EPA range should be influenced by weapon choice.

Quote
You've gotta keep in mind, when mages are relying on 30-40 PP moves to deal the bulk of their damage, they're going to be burning through PP very quickly.
Only in high level play.

The point behind not recovering full HP and PP every time is to essentially make sure that everyone's not spamming everything they've got as soon as they get into battle.  This is a prolonged campaign, not a group of skirmishes.  There will be options to improve the recovery rate, but a certain percentage of their max HP and PP should recover every turn.  Maybe, say, 20% or so.  This should force people to fight a bit more strategically, or face the consequences of going in with guns a-blazing.  That may make for a spectacular final battle, but if you deplete your ammunition in the first battle, you can't simply magically resupply yourself for the next, you know?

Counter systems: You broke mages, way to go!  If I countered with Fulminous Arc every time I was attacked physically, for ZERO PP cost, I'd be invulnerable.  You'd have to OHKO me to not suffer gobs of damage, even WITH the half-damage modifier.  Try this instead:  Mages only get one counter, and it's to front-attacks only.  Spellblades get one counter to all sides except for the rear.  Warriors get one counter to side attacks, and two to front attacks (can counter a counterattack if attacked from the front),  counters have a +10% modifier to damage.  Fighters get two counters to everything but rear attacks (nobody can counter a rear attack).  Counters are always physical in nature.  If you get your mage into harm's way, it's your fault.  You don't get to counter with a Zero PP uberspell, you get to bleed.  For all except for Warrior, counters are weaker than a normal attack by 10% (after damage is calculated, it's multiplied by 0.9).  For Warriors, who opt for brute force instead of skill, the rage they get when hit actually boosts the power of the counter to 1.1 times normal value.

To put it simply...

If you have 0 counters from a direction, you don't counter.
If you have 1 counter, you counterattack.
If you have 2, you can counter a counter attack, and if one of your counter attacks is countered, you counter again.
Max number of attacks is 2 (attacking and countering the counter, or countering, then countering their rebuttal)

Fighters counter most often
Warriors counter hardest
Spellblades counter when attacked, but prefer magic
Mages shouldn't be in range.

@Sieges and Support - I like it, but I think it'll complicate it too much.  Great for a video game, bad for a forum game.

@Weapons again:  Honestly, if we're going to make bows, then we should just give them to mages for when they run out of spells.  For pure mages, substitute scythe for Bow and we should be fine.  Crossbows seem kinda redundant with bows existing, though.  Drop em.
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« Reply #42 on: July 19, 2010, 12:07:16 AM »

So is this gonna be a text based game or are these formulas gonna be put in a system?

Cause this is all ying yang to me....
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« Reply #43 on: July 19, 2010, 12:20:22 AM »

As I said elsewhere, that's because we've not decided on anything concrete yet.  When we do, we'll lay it out in an easy-to-understand fashion.  Right now, let the geeks have their technobable until they come to a consensus.
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« Reply #44 on: July 19, 2010, 01:14:38 AM »

It's official. You're pissing me off.

I really don't like that system, leaf.  As I said before, bows are useless in a game where everyone's a caster, since they're supposed to stay out of the range of others.  That system also makes it pointless to be a caster if you're a MOV5 unit - what's the point of casting a spell if you can only do it two spaces ahead?  Furthermore, look at casters in general - they can all reach the same panel with their spells.  That makes Forward Mages useless and Grand Mages broken, since when everything is said and done, everyone has the same range.
Go back and read my posts. Now. I'm not going to explain supports and sieges all over again. Their advantage is in their ability to reposition themselves. And you're gonna have to explain what a "forward mage" and "grand mage" are. I can imagine what you mean, but we have enough communication issues as it is.

And bows are not useless in a game where everyone is a caster. Bow users could focus on Will and Atk, and essentially act as mage counters. As long as you keep them out of the way of physicals (which isn't too hard to do, given that they have the best range in the game, and can follow behind your other units), they would do fine. Or they could be used to begin an offensive against a melee unit, which would at best be able to counter with a weak spell.

Quote
Rather, I think range should be determined by the ability you're using, not be the weapon.  Only the normal attack range and EPA range should be influenced by weapon choice.
And you broke move 5 units. Great job.

Quote
Quote
You've gotta keep in mind, when mages are relying on 30-40 PP moves to deal the bulk of their damage, they're going to be burning through PP very quickly.
Only in high level play.
Only in high level play? What the hell is wrong with you? We're playing in a system where all psynergies are usable. You can't just handwave that by saying "oh, that only applies at high levels." We're playing at high levels.

Quote
The point behind not recovering full HP and PP every time is to essentially make sure that everyone's not spamming everything they've got as soon as they get into battle.  This is a prolonged campaign, not a group of skirmishes.  There will be options to improve the recovery rate, but a certain percentage of their max HP and PP should recover every turn.  Maybe, say, 20% or so.  This should force people to fight a bit more strategically, or face the consequences of going in with guns a-blazing.  That may make for a spectacular final battle, but if you deplete your ammunition in the first battle, you can't simply magically resupply yourself for the next, you know?
Again... What the hell? So you're planning on breaking mages and then making them "balanced" by making them limited in the number of uses they have? That's just as bad as status staves in FETO, which were notoriously broken, and only balanced by their rarity and how many times you could use them, so they weren't really balanced at all. Defenses in this game should be good enough that as a mage, if you're not burning through half of your PP each battle, you're doing it wrong. Furthermore, if you're not going to fully replenish HP and PP between rounds, but you are going to replenish them by a little bit, there's nothing to stop someone from putting healing moves on all of their physical characters and then just spam healing at the beginning of the next battle to bring themselves up to full HP, without having to expend any PP from their mages. You just turned a non-broken mechanic (healing) into a broken one. Proud of yourself?

Quote
Counter systems: You broke mages, way to go!  If I countered with Fulminous Arc every time I was attacked physically, for ZERO PP cost, I'd be invulnerable.  You'd have to OHKO me to not suffer gobs of damage, even WITH the half-damage modifier. 
Stop. Stop right there. Fulminous Arc doesn't exist. I have no idea what that move is, but it only exists inside your head. It does not exist in the GS games. Therefore, it does not exist here. Get all those made-up psynergies out of your head. We're not using them. At most, we're converting already-existing psynergies to have new uses within the SPRG system, but with sieges/supports, that might not even be necessary.

Quote
Try this instead:  Mages only get one counter, and it's to front-attacks only.  Spellblades get one counter to all sides except for the rear.  Warriors get one counter to side attacks, and two to front attacks (can counter a counterattack if attacked from the front),  counters have a +10% modifier to damage.  Fighters get two counters to everything but rear attacks (nobody can counter a rear attack).  Counters are always physical in nature.  If you get your mage into harm's way, it's your fault.  You don't get to counter with a Zero PP uberspell, you get to bleed.  For all except for Warrior, counters are weaker than a normal attack by 10% (after damage is calculated, it's multiplied by 0.9).  For Warriors, who opt for brute force instead of skill, the rage they get when hit actually boosts the power of the counter to 1.1 times normal value.
Or... when the strongest spell any class gets in the game is only 200 power, when it's halved, it ends up doing pretty reasonable damage. If we're turning the psynergy base damages into multipliers, only in the case of grand gaia does a mage's counterattack even equal the strength of a warrior's counterattack. Fulminous Arc doesn't exist, so I don't care what you could do with it.

Quote
To put it simply...

If you have 0 counters from a direction, you don't counter.
If you have 1 counter, you counterattack.
If you have 2, you can counter a counter attack, and if one of your counter attacks is countered, you counter again.
Max number of attacks is 2 (attacking and countering the counter, or countering, then countering their rebuttal)

Fighters counter most often
Warriors counter hardest
Spellblades counter when attacked, but prefer magic
Mages shouldn't be in range.
I thought we agreed to remove those classes? That's the whole reason we're having a customization system, after all, right? It's better to just have a generic counter system that works for everyone, and make classes based purely on what the weapon choice/movement is. And for the record, I don't make the distinction between fighters and warriors and never have. If I ever needed to, I'd specify whether or not they were bulky.

Quote
@Sieges and Support - I like it, but I think it'll complicate it too much.  Great for a video game, bad for a forum game.
This explains why you think I've broken everything. You weren't considering it with the support/siege system in place. Not having those defeats the point of the way I balanced the various movement levels. And I don't think it'd be any more complicated for a forum than this game already is (besides maybe the bonus modifiers on sieges...). We're already gonna need to code up a damage calculator and stat calculator for this as it is. And the truth is, the support/siege system is the only thing that would give this game any good depth, since otherwise it's pretty much just a "I have better stats than you therefore I win" game, which I'm pretty sure is something you and I both wanted to avoid.

Quote
@Weapons again:  Honestly, if we're going to make bows, then we should just give them to mages for when they run out of spells.  For pure mages, substitute scythe for Bow and we should be fine.  Crossbows seem kinda redundant with bows existing, though.  Drop em.
...

Bows are supposed to be a physical attacker's answer to spells. Crossbows may very well be better than bows the way I did it (notice how they have a bigger negative bonus, since they have more potential to be abused). Being able to hit at 5 range means they would outrange even the farthest hitting spells, but they'd be unable to counter if someone got anywhere close to them. They're far from redundant, although they may need a bigger stat penalty to make them balanced.
Logged

Spoiler for quotes:
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O
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Today at 02:46:36 PM
KyleRunner: Atrius!!
Yesterday at 11:29:46 PM
Atrius: @Fox, I tried, but for some reason Mario Golf won't boot, and Mario Tennis crashes when you patch out the text compression, and I'm not sure why...  The normal text loading functions in them are basically the same as the ones in the Golden Sun games.
April 16, 2018, 07:44:36 AM
Drake baku: So it took about halve a hour of letting my lap stay off for it to suddenly work again
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March 12, 2018, 02:18:17 AM
Fox: And since that's the case...  I have thought of another fun experiment idea. - What if we had an auction on who should run this site, and waited for 10 people to bid and also for a bare minimum of 24 hours. Who would bid the highest, and how much would that bid be? - The idea is more for lulz (Maybe for April Fools?), and a theory to get an idea of how much the site might be worth as well.
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