Fire emblem:(working title)

[Charon]

Interesting. I've never had a chance to play the GBA fe's but it seems like we could work around with these. (although I still don't see why so many people seem to object to adding more bases lol)

Bases as in the weapon types, or as in base stats? Adding new weapon types would be cool, but I would imagine it to be like adding new elements to Golden Sun.

I mean like as having similar base classes for characters, but with slightly different stats and stat growths. Like, having a Guard line, a Page line, ect. But we don't have to do it with every class, just a few. It'd get a bit difficult if we went too crazy...

@Role - staves as healers and effects is like one of the huge staples of the fe series ;-;

[Salanewt]

Charon has a point. Oh yeah, has anyone seen the videos about the game with Mia and Isaac added? It was kind of funny (although they were the only characters that I recognized).

As for the weapon ideas, that sound like a pretty good triangle. The only problem with leaving out the other types of magic would be that there are no more weapon types to work with, and there are those who love to use their magic. It is a good idea, however. I wonder what Luigi will think?

Have a nice day.

[Rolina]

I know, I know.  But IIRC, this thread is about making a GS hack of FE.  Thus, the magic triangle would be:

Luna (Seal/Dark) beats Sol (Pure/Light
Sol (Pure/Light) beats Elemental (/Anima)
Elemental (/Anima) beats Luna (Seal/Dark)

I THINK that's actually reversed, but the way it's done here makes sense in terms of GS Lore - Luna sealed away Sol, Sol is the sum of all elements, and the individual elements survive through and undo the effects of Luna.

Also:  The only time non-base classes should be used is for the Jeigan, to give them higher growths to make up for being, well, the Jeigan.

[Kain]

Well first, it IS backwards.  Light beats Dark.  Dark beats Anima.  Anima beats Light.  But I can't argue GS's setup so go with Dark beats Light, Light beats Anima, Anima beats Dark.  Also...new weapons?  I like the idea, but why make new weapon classes instead of just adding those weapons in as existing weapon types?  Maces could be added to axe.  Scyth to swords.  Why not make Ankh an item instead of a weapon or something?  Like...it stops the effects of spells that ignore Resistance (Ie:  Luna) and gives units with dirt poor resistance something to help them, just like the Filis Shield for flying units for bows and the Guard thing that negates criticals.  Just tossing an idea out there.

If you're magic user is going into armed combat, I think something's wrong here.  They're already leveling up with a set amount of stats and magic is replaced for Strength for magic users.  They have poor defense as is, let alone their HP.  Giving your healers (Who are generally portrayed as being weak, feeble or scrawnier than other characters in all games.) a heavy weapon like a mace...I hope you see where I'm going with this.  Besides, the staffs are what let the magic users heal in the game, however, I have heard of someone hacking the game to make the healing animation for enemies, but instead of healing them, it hurts them.

So I'm going to go have to ask if you are going to consider the GC/Wii/DS versions since GS is a GBA game and the first few FE's were GBA as well.  Because it wasn't until the Gamecube version when Daggers/Knives had their own weapons and then the Wii made them a class.  Also...why not have new units?  You have Lord class, which is customizeable to whatever sprite you want for whatever weapon, which is usually a Rapier wielding weakling, that more often than not, turns into another form of Lord class that has a horse.  Ike, Lyn and Hector were exceptions AFAIK and Ike changed class twice.

[Griever]

The elemental triangle is fine the way Tole explained i think.
But i don't really like the idea of adding mace to axe .... nor scyth to swords, also you are forgetting the fact that Ankh is Mia's signature weapon and Mia is mainly a healer so if the Ankh is added as a healing weapon instead of the healing staff she won't lose her job ><

Adding items that stops the effect of spells like LUNA is not really that of a good idea. LUNA had only 1 good use (since we don't get enough of it) is that its strong against other spell casters. It does damage equal to mag and ignores the resistance of the mage.

Mace, in GS, was one of the weapons mages (and healers) can use. so giving a healer a mace is not a bad idea, we don't have to do every thing like FE did it.

Nice work though ><

[Rolina]

Well first, it IS backwards.  Light beats Dark.  Dark beats Anima.  Anima beats Light.  But I can't argue GS's setup so go with Dark beats Light, Light beats Anima, Anima beats Dark.  Also...new weapons?  I like the idea, but why make new weapon classes instead of just adding those weapons in as existing weapon types?  Maces could be added to axe.  Scyth to swords.  Why not make Ankh an item instead of a weapon or something?  Like...it stops the effects of spells that ignore Resistance (Ie:  Luna) and gives units with dirt poor resistance something to help them, just like the Filis Shield for flying units for bows and the Guard thing that negates criticals.  Just tossing an idea out there.

If you're magic user is going into armed combat, I think something's wrong here.  They're already leveling up with a set amount of stats and magic is replaced for Strength for magic users.  They have poor defense as is, let alone their HP.  Giving your healers (Who are generally portrayed as being weak, feeble or scrawnier than other characters in all games.) a heavy weapon like a mace...I hope you see where I'm going with this.  Besides, the staffs are what let the magic users heal in the game, however, I have heard of someone hacking the game to make the healing animation for enemies, but instead of healing them, it hurts them.

So I'm going to go have to ask if you are going to consider the GC/Wii/DS versions since GS is a GBA game and the first few FE's were GBA as well.  Because it wasn't until the Gamecube version when Daggers/Knives had their own weapons and then the Wii made them a class.  Also...why not have new units?  You have Lord class, which is customizeable to whatever sprite you want for whatever weapon, which is usually a Rapier wielding weakling, that more often than not, turns into another form of Lord class that has a horse.  Ike, Lyn and Hector were exceptions AFAIK and Ike changed class twice.

New weapon types my @#$.  Like I've told you many times:  PLAY GOLDEN SUN ALREADY, DAMMIT!

Also, if you were paying attention, you'd see that Scythes replace Dark Tomes, Ankhs replace Light Tomes, and Maces replace Anima tomes in the GS hack I mentioned.  Do TRY to pay attention next time, okay?

We'll probably do a GBA version - can't do a DS version without the tools and a decent emulator, and I'm SURE there's hacking tools for FE out there already, it's simply a matter of making... a...



...


Guys.


Clan wars.

Seriously.

Think about it.  It starts out, the clans pitted against one another.  However, bit by bit, it's revealed that someone has been playing them against one another, and slowly the four clans come to realize this, eventually uniting in one large army against the guilty person.  I vote Jamie for bad guy - GBG's too obvious.

[Salanewt]

I like the idea to allow for those weapons, it is just that it would force pretty much every unit to be a fighter. You have no more mages (aside from the healers). There are people who prefer using the pure mage type as opposed to mixed. If someone were given a Scythe (for example), it would look a bit strange for them to cast magic with it. Giving someone the ability to use both a weapon and magic would be nice though (since if I recall correctly, characters in the GBA Fire Emblems could only have weapon types from one set or the other (weapons or magic)). It might have been possible to teach people magic when they are in the weapon category though, but it would not show the levels?

Jamie as the bad guy? I would prefer him as one of the kindly kings in the game than one of the bad guys. However, the original idea (before Luigi took over the project) was that everyone here would be a usable character, and then throw in some YL members. It was going to be based on post count, so it isn't like we would have any of the 0-post bots or anything.

Oh yeah, Ephraim did not use a Rapier either. However, he spawns a horse like other Lords.

Have a nice day.

[Charon]

I think a really big problem in having Maces as healers are just as Kain said - Maces are usually heavy objects, and that would seriously hinder the healer's speed. We could probably extrapolate and just change the healing/effect items to the psynergy objects, like the Teleport Lapis and all that.

We could possibly, however, add additional effects to the weapons. I am so sick of just "Iron Sword. Steel Sword. Silver Sword." ect.. Yeah, I know, there are special weapons with special range or those that defeat certain units quickly, but I mean a serious makeover - having units have weaknesses and resistances to certain elements, and many weapons have that elemental combonation with it. Screw the weapon triangle, keep it the same, but add the element part and we could really mix things up. (We could proably add elements by changing the unit types, such as horseback/knight/flying ect. and just make it so that they have certain weaknesses/resistences that are elemental based). Of course, we shouldn't just have this kind of battling; we do need neutral weapons after all.
Also:

Oh yeah, Ephraim did not use a Rapier either. However, he spawns a horse like other Lords.

'cept for marth because nobody gives marth any love 'cept for meeeeeeee~

[Rolina]

So basically you're wanting exactly what I've been suggesting - A Golden Sun based game using FE mechanics.

Also, am I the only one hearing me?

What the HELL do you mean, Sala, by then "we have no mages"?  SCYTHES, MACES, and ANKHS work like the TOMES - basically, THEY CAST WITH THEM, THEY DON'T ATTACK WITH THEM.  Staffs, by popular demand, are the healing items.  Personally, I think if we're doing this, then we should swap staffs and ankhs due to the Ankh's connections with Mia, but hey, that's just me.

But hey, I've said this... how many times now?  How many times have I had to repeat myself and have NOBODY listen?  Nobody listens to the mage, I swear... >_>

[Charon]

I think that's what most of us want... but...

It's quite hard to think of how it would work. They're totally different games. Probably modifying the unit types is the only way to go.

[Rolina]

...No, it's actually rather easy.


What's wrong with y'all?  I've had all of four, maybe five hours of experience with Fire Emblem, as well as a brief explanation to the terms and basics of the series from my ex-roomie.  How is it that I am doing this so easily, and yet y'all, who supposedly play the crap out of this game, are having a hard time with it?

If anything, it should be the other way around!

[Kain]

First off, I'm giving suggestions here.  I DID read your comments and I gave some of my own in regard to yours.  Somehow you got the impression I didn't read your post.  How this appears to me is, this is a Fire Emblem hack but you're tring to put in Golden Sun characteristics and what not.  I'm trying to keep the basic FE style while trying to implement what you guys have suggested to try and make it work.  Am I wrong here?

I don't see how you can give a mage class a weapon nor do I exactly like the idea.  That's pretty much taking out the magic role of the game by making every unit a weapon fighter.  Granted, in Path of Radiance, units had a Strength AND Magic stat, but fighters generally didn't gain any skill in Magic nor mages gained Strength, which is what made weapons like Sonic Sword (Which worked on both of those stats depending on what range you fight.) good for Mist since she's a cleric that gains the ability to use a sword later.(Speaking of weapons, I forgot to list Light Brand, it's a sword with light magic.)

As I stated...JUST TOSSING OUT IDEAS.  Ankh is that girls weapon.  Yay.  Make an icon for it, make an animation and give it a times left/times can be used number and voila.  Prf type weapon for that char.

When I hear scythe, my mind does not immediately go towards the big scythes like the grim reaper carries, more like smaller hand scythes.  Thus my suggestion to put it in swords.  However, if this is a big scythe, then axe or lance would be a better idea while mace goes to swords, unless you want to keep those out.  Or you CAN make them Prf weapons or legendary weapons.

There IS a glitch you can cause to give your characters the ability to use classes they can't normally use.  However, they have no combat animation and the rank does increase, but is not shown.  I think it might be an effect from the mine glitch.

There are classes that duel wield, however it's mainly special characters.  Mist:  Valkyrie, but she can use swords and staves.  Elincia:  Uses swords and staves, but rides a Pegasi.  Also, if you REALLY want to make those weapons magic types...then give them the same animation like you would the already existing weapons, Sonic Sword, Light Brand and Rune Blade.  Light, Anima and Dark magic swords.  (Though the swords aren't affected by magic.)

Elemental weapons are in effect for the Laguz on the Path of Radiance game.  (Not to mention, there are elemental weapons.)  Wolves are weak to fire, dragons are weak to thunder and birds are weak to wind.  Just adding information, but I do have an idea for what you're saying.

Like...throw in your Venus element and it could deal more damage to cavalry or mounted units but said units could also resist Jupiter elements easier, making a weapon like Ridersbane with that element harder to use against said unit.  Of course, I agree that we should keep the basic non elemental weapons like Iron sword, but you could possibly forge an Iron Sword with a Mars effect.

I keep forgetting certain lord units.  Ephraim is a spear, yes.  My bad.  And Marth doesn't get a war pony.  However, they half fall into the category previously stated.

[Rolina]

smaller hand scythes

Those are called SICKLES.  Learn your farming tools.

Kain... PLAY GOLDEN SUN ALREADY!  EVERY MAGE HAS AN ANKH SPRITE!  EVERY.  SINGLE.  ONE.  It's not just Mia.  Seriously, PLAY THE FREAKING GAME.  Second, they're trying to make a FE hack which is based in Golden Sun.  Thus, MY WEAPON SWAPS.  This way, it uses GS weapon types while still playing like Fire Emblem.  You read my posts, yes.  But did you listen?  No.  Otherwise you'd have understood where I was coming from when I replaced the tomes with GS equipment types.  Most characters who use maces (Read:  Since fighters are pretty much always using swords or axes, Mia and Sheba) are more well known for CASTING rather than attacking physically, they were listed under "magical".

The elemental sub-triangle I've not figured out yet.  I dunno if the code will allow for 4 elements, and if it does, we can just follow Rockman.EXE's cycle:  Venus > Jupiter > Mercury > Mars > Venus.  That'd work well for our purposes.  However, if not, I'm sure we can find a way to make it nothing more than an 'asthetic animation difference', and just restrict equipable weapons to different characters based on element.  One thing is for sure - Wind and Lightning are both the same element if we're doing a GS hack, Jupiter, so we can't really separate them.

You're tossing out ideas, but you're attacking mine out of context, Kain.  You're blatantly disregarding why I'm making various suggestions, and picking and choosing what you're listening to.  You got the necessity for the magic triangle reversal, but NOT the equipment change.  You totally ignored it, blindly thinking I was talking about physical attacks on mage units.

Basically, it's akin to you thinking that my new weapon for Marida is an axe, despite knowing very well she's a mage.  THINK next time.

[leaf]

Role, you keep claiming you have this so easily "figured out," and then touting that you have barely had any experience with FE. That's part of the problem. Not all of us agree with making physically oriented weapons into the magical weapons and personally, I think it's highly awkward for stuff like maces and scythes to be used predominately for magic. At most, they should be hybrid weapons, but any weapon type could be qualified for a hybrid weapon.

I know it doesn't make much sense, either, but we could make psynergy stones be the primary magic weapon, which would take away some of the weirdness.

If we're doing an element cycle (instead of opposing elements), I vote venus>mercury>mars>jupiter, since that's the order the elements appear in the listing in GS. Although neither GS gameplay nor GS storyline hint toward a cyclical elemental system at all, and the storyline hints much more toward an opposing elements system (despite not really being reflected in gameplay). Unfortunately, opposing elements probably wouldn't work too well in an FE environment.

[Rolina]

That's the thing, I don't.  I never claimed I did.  In fact, I explicitly said that it makes no sense why I'm the one putting this out there - I'd have expected ANYONE to be able to do this before me.  Which is why this is confusing the hell out of me.  I have a rudimentary-at-best knowledge of FE, it make no sense that I'm the one putting this out.  All I know is the basic GIST mechanics.  Not specifics, just the basic, most simple rules and terms.   That it.

And that's what's confusing the hell out of me.  All I'm doing is posting info that'd let us do a GS-themed game that works in the FE engine.  Hell, I don't even know if I got the name for the magic weapons right in FE!  I'm calling them Tomes... for all I know, they could be Grimoires or something.  I just remember books.  Since there's no book weapons in GS, and the only actual book makes more sense as a class upgrade item, I figured we'd just use weapons from GS that are commonly attributed to mages.

Scythes from the prox chicks.  They were antagonists, so they have the 'dark' attribute.
Maces, now that I think of it, are used by clerics in other media, whom wield divine power... they may be a better choice as the "Light" candidate.
Staffs were healing items in FE, but in GS they're more attributed with offense than defense, so I figured they'd be the "Anima" candidate.
The only person with a signature weapon of Ankh was Mia, the healer, so Ankhs would be the healing equipment.

That was my logic.  If you can come up with something better, do so.  But don't accuse me of giving them physical weapons - read the post and the suggestions IN CONTEXT.  Otherwise it just pisses me off.  I KNOW mages can't attack physically in FE.  They don't even have a strength stat!

Due to the symbolism in GS, though, it make sense for the element triangle to be reversed as its 'default' direction.

Next came the Anima-sub-triangle.  GS has FOUR elements, though. So it's more of a square... There's another game that did something similar, and it made sense.  The logic went as such:

Fire scorches Earth.  Earth blocks Wind.  Wind disperses Water.  Water douses Fire. 

Thus my earlier order.  It makes sense, as far as I'm concerned.  There's also an alternative:

Fire melts Ice, Ice freezes wind's wings, wind beats fire for balancing reasons, and earth is neutral.

I liked the first one more, so...


Yeah.  There's my logic.  Spelled out this time.  The fighter weapons are easy, and light blades can easily be used as daggers.

[thenightsshadow]

My suggestion is to make everyone hybrids, and using FE8 as a base instead of FE7.  The reason? 

- In Fire Emblem, weapons are always used for STR calculations while tomes/magic are always used for MAG calculations.  If you can make it so that instead of the traditionalist Sword > Axe > Lance > Sword, we have Fighter > Spellsword > Mage > Fighter for physical weapons, then you have your triangle.  This, of course, means that weapons equippable by more than one type of classs has to be firmly in only one class.

Fighter - Sword/Axe
Spellsword - Dagger/Staff
Mage - Mace/Ankh

That's just one suggestion on how to split them up.

Now, for psynergy.  There isn't exactly a way to represent PP in any of the GBA games without ridiculous recoding, so that's out of the picture.  Instead, if you want to emulate that, represent basic/intermediate/advanced psynergy as tomes (excluding EPAs), and have the tomes' uses refill back to full after each battle.  There's a way to do so, but I don't know how to do it (I'm assuming it involves looking at how the uses refill after taking a downed enemy's weapon).  Of course, since they refill, set their maximum as being lower.

Something like 32 for Quake, 16 for Earthquake, 8 for Quake Sphere, and work from there.

- When you hack FE8, and you combine weapons and magic, STR and MAG interchange depending on the weapon.  If you hack FE7, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't and causes glitches.

Also, supposedly, the refill works in both FE8 and FE7, but I've only seen it in a hack of FE8.

[Salanewt]

Not to mention that Fire Emblem 8 already has a Creature Campaign, so it would be fun to work with the maps in that as well (the only game that lets you work on your characters after killing the boss).

I agree with Leaf's idea for the new magical weapons. The scythe would look a bit funny when casting magic with it, especially when the amount of uses that it has left are reduced.

Ooh, I have an idea! I think a bit of THUMB would be needed for this or something, but what about giving certain units an attack when they do not have weapons equipped? For example, lets use Ewan. With my idea, he would be able to use a very weak version of Fire if he does not have a tome, or something like a small aura ball or a splash of energy.

And Luigi, I have an idea for a character submission for your hack, but I just need to work out suitable stats. For now, I can say that he would be a red Yoshi (not a generic one by the way), and can use magic. What makes him different from most mages would be that he has better movement (a bit closer to what a Paladin would have for movement, but to allow for walking on water like a Pirate and climbing mountains slightly). Basically, a mage's talent in a Yoshi's body. No idea on what the rest of the stats could be though, although I might make them all balanced (with slightly better magic). To avoid making him perfect, he will only be able to use one Magic type until he classes up, and then he can have the ability for two magic types and a Manakete-like item.

Have a nice day.

Have a nice day.

[Kain]

You're right, they are called Tomes.

Kain... PLAY GOLDEN SUN ALREADY!  EVERY MAGE HAS AN ANKH SPRITE!  EVERY.  SINGLE.  ONE.  It's not just Mia.  Seriously, PLAY THE FREAKING GAME.

Go play Fire Emblem.  Go beat Fire Emblem.

@thenightsshadow:  But that totally takes lances out of the picture.  lol.

Look, why is this Ankh, Mace and Scythe thing really an issue?  There are only four weapon sprites for each class of weapons and magic and the actual weapons themselves on the sprites are not changed at all either.  Lords are the only ones who have different weapon animations for their legendary weapons and that was only on FE7.  Other than that, the sprites don't change.  Mages aren't show holding anything.  Unless you're going to sprite a scythe in for, say, a druids entire combat animation.

EDIT:  The psynergy symbols would be a great idea for a replacement for the tomes.  You could even work it like FE PoR.  Each element has a mastery level for mages.  Or you could give every unit a type and they are affected differently depending on the spell or person with another affinity attacking them.

Another thing, how would you identify your spells?  Each tome, unlike swords, has a different color to show what element it is.  Also, what would you do for uses?  The weapons aren't going to last forever I would hope.

Casting magic without tomes?  I've only read of this in fanfiction, but I generally have to agree.  Sure you don't have a weapon anymore, but why are you not doing anything but dodging?  It'd be good if you could at least retaliate somehow.  Look at the bird Laguz!  When they aren't transformed, they punch enemies!

[Salanewt]

Yeah, and it would also help when you want to kill someone who only has a small amount of HP left (like one or two HP), and the only weapon that you have left is your Fimbulvetr (the only Ice magic in Sacred Stones) or your Dragonstone.

Have a nice day.

Edit: Each psynergy has one of these little bullets ( ) to remind you of what element it is. Of course, it all depends on what Luigi wants for the hack, whether he includes any of these ideas or not.

[thenightsshadow]

I never took lances out of the picture.  Lances don't exist in GS, playability-wise, so strictly speaking Lances don't have a spot to begin with.

Even then, Mages' weapons take the role of Lances.  The sprite-change is easily enough obtained, and if you need help with that, ask my buddy MK404.

---

The sprites identify the spells.  A simple oblong rock can be used for Quake, a few rocks going out of the ground for Earthquake, and Quake Sphere is pretty obvious.  Using a color scheme sets the magic apart.

The problem, I think, is that you can't code Venus beats Jupiter beats Mars beats Mercury beats Venus, or w/e.  FE8/FE7 can't accommodate those.  Instead, what you'll have to do is split Mercury from the group, and use that for the Staves, which works since it's mainly healing and status effects.  I suggest Venus beats Jupiter beats Mars beats Venus.

--

Casting magic without tomes in the FE universe is possible if you have a magical weapon (re: Wind Sword) or you're using magic for non-combat reasons (see all FE Manga).  Otherwise, if you're aiming to strictly adhere to the universe, use "tomes".  I suggested a workaround above, but there's plenty of ways to do it.