Yes, everyone knows golden sun has a few plot holes.
So why don't we name them, and see if we can solve some!
This applies to both games.
1. Isaacs boat.
Not really a plot hole, just unexplained... seriously where did it go!?
2. How did Isaac and crew get into the jupiter lighthouse without Cyclone?
This one i can't explain.
3. How did saturos and crew (including sheba) climb the venus lighthouse without reveal?
My theory on this one is that perhaps alex warped them inside?
How about when Garet freaks out when mars Lighthouse is lit?
He says that something grabbed him.
Oh, and nice idea on plot hole number 3! But that leads us to another plot hole: How come Alex can have teleport psynergy? (similar to teleport at least.)
well theres only one teleport lapis, halt gem etc, Alex could have easily found/stolen/got a teleporting item and the party would never be able to find a second one.
Ops, I meant that he used a diferent kind of teleport. Possibly water elemental. Either way, It's plausible that he actually found either a Teleport Lapis or psynergy item that Felix never found.
Oh, and about plot hole 2: can't Isaac get the Ninja class?If i'm not mistaken he learns Gale (same as whirlwind).
Oooops, i meant to say cyclone, ivan already has whirlwind!
Well, maybe they found a Cyclone Chip while they were trying to find Lemuria for Babi. But they somehow lost it/dropped it when they fought Karst and Agatio (or because of Karst's trap) on Jupiter Lighthouse.
Hm... That would be plausible. Also, it is nice to talk about plot holes as well.
For #2, I was wondering about this at first as well, but perhaps they somehow snuck in after Felix and co. entered?
Lets see if I can think of one...
Well, this isn't really a plot HOLE, but if you go to the Forest near Kolima, and fight Trent with Mia, the mayor of Kolima does not acknowledge her, he refers to the group as "the three boys". I am guessing that women's rights in this region do not count for anything??? Lol.
Have a nice day.
Alex stole Isaacs and COs boat.
Alex learned how to use the Warp psynergy on his own [he is the most powerful adept in Weyard remember-evidenced by the fact that he can fly , has the Geyser Psynergy , etc.
Saturos and Menardi could quite easily get an item that bestows Reveal.
Not sure about the Jupiter Lighthouse bit though....
And for the Garet bit on MKars Lighthouse-Golden Sun 3.
Yes, but if Alex stole their boat, then how did they get to Contigo in the first place?
That would make sense, except that if he could just use a plain Warp psynergy, then why didn't he light the lighthouses himself? He could have stolen the stars if he was the most powerful adept.
They could have, but that would mean that only Sheba could use it, and she doesn't have Reveal when you get her in the second Golden Sun (I thought they said that only Jupiter Adepts could learn Reveal).
Yeah, that part is extremely flaky.
That makes sense.
Have a nice day.
Alex probably didn't know much about the lighthouses except for the power they hold, which is why he joined saturos's party.
After Saturos died he spent most of his time trying to get to Mt. Aleph, and used Agatio/karst to make sure Felix got the job done.
There was no reason for him to steal the stars back from you as he knew you'd be able to light the remaining lighthouses.
That kinda makes sense anyway.
Alex needed to be at Mount Aleph the moment all the light houses were lit to recieve the power of the golden sun.
for #3 is it possible that sheba intuitively knew how get in without it?
Actually, couldn't Alex have warped Saturos and Co. Past that electric barrier in the regular Venus lighthouse entrance?
This makes perfect sense if Saturos hadn't gone through the other entrance...
Why would they do things the hard way?
Oh yeah, I forgot tht detail about him having to be there. Well, he could have stolen the stars, lit the first three Lighthouses, and then make sure that Felix and co. recieved the Mrs Star.
Have a nice day.
Alex needed to go with Saturos to get the stars, but after that yes he COULD have lit three himself, but would Felix have been strong enough to light mars on his own?
I think Alex wanted Isaac/felix to light all 4 lighthouses, as they'd get stronger.
Plus, i don't think Alex wanted to have to fight Saturos for the stars.
Yeah. However, some of these plot devices could be explained a bit more... For example, Isaac taking a different route in Jupiter Lighthouse... I would imagine that it is pretty hard to find a different route to get into a building with no doors, my next guess for that would be to, er... Possibly there is a door at the back of the Lighthouse?
Felix: Hey, its Isaac!
Jenna: How did you get in here? We had to go to a different continent to get a special psynergy...
Isaac: Oh, I just used the back door.
Jenna: Oh...
This reminds me. How did Isaac and co. get to the higher levels of Jupiter Ligthhouse if Hover is needed? Yeah, an alternate path could be possible to get in, but I doubt that any of them spout wings for that tiny bit (and if they could, then why not use these wings to rescue Mia and Garet, who would probably have to fly up themselves).
Also, Garet's arm does make sense, but why did it take him so long to mention anything about it? I am surprised that he never said that his arm was sore anywhere else but at Jupiter Lighthouse (sore, numb, whatever).
Yeah, where did Alex go? I actually had a funny dream a while ago about a sequel for Golden Sun on the Wii (over a year or two ago), and Alex was under Mt. Aleph with white hair and pale skin, due to not having any sunlight. However, the dream started introducing places like downtown cities and cell phones, yet it was still about Golden Sun.
As for Isaac's ship, I have a new theory... After the tremor at Jupiter Lighthouse, it went sailing for a bit, and then it sank. It would be nice if more text was added saying this. For example...
Guy: After Mt. Jupiter was lit, I saw a large ship sailing off into the sea. However, it sunk underwater shortly afterwards. I hope that nobody drowned in it.
And for another new mystery... Where did the ship in Idejima go?
Have a nice day.
There's a plot hole there too.
Alex: "We set sail after the beacon is lit."
They can't! They don't have the Black Orb for that ship!
What should have been said afterwards:
Jenna: Do you have the thingy to power the ship?
Alex: Yes.
Sheba: So, then we're going now? Yay!
Alex: We have to wait for the beacon to be lit, though.
Kraden (or whoever says that line): That's strange, it hasn't been lit yet.
And then all the rest of that stuff happens. Anyway, what happened to the ship was that the tidal wave sank it probably. But then everyone else is later saying "we could use Saturos and Menardi's ship, but the orb is at the bottom of the sea with them". The fact is, Alex has to have the orb, or they wouldn't have been able to sail off at the beginning like they were planning to.
Oh yeah, that is right... But why didn't the island sink as well? Of course, it would kind of be hard to play if it sinks...
We still have to decide how Isaac and co. got to the top of Jupiter Lighthouse without Hover. I kind of doubt that they joined Alex just to go to the top of the Lighthouse.
Oh, and another one... Where is the island that you can get to in Karagol Sea? The island seems really big to fit there for it to not be seen from the shores, and it isn't in either the Eastern or Westen Seas. What was that island called again? It had Deadbeard in it.
And I suppose that there is another one.
Have a nice day.
For #3, Alex just warped past the door.
Guys, keep in mind that for some of these things, it's as simple as: They can use a psynergy that you never have access to. For example, Alex's Geyser and 'Mist' techniques. Both are arguably water psynergies. While Teleport uses a circle to transport from point A to point B, Mist doesn't seem to need one. However, UNLIKE teleport, it's range seems quite limited. After all, Teleport can take you all the way from the Mars Lighthouse to freaking YALLAM. That's literally on the other side of the world. However, the most we've EVER seen with this "Mist" technique is a somewhat short jump. This seems to imply that the target may have to be in the same area (read: screen) in order to be preformed. Although those are only two examples, I'd argue that there's plenty more where that came from. S&M could just have a psynergetic tool (akin to douse drop or tremor bit) that you just never got. That could be how they got there.
The thing with Garet's arm could be a translation error. For all we know, his arm could have been bothering him after the jupiter lighthouse incident. It could just be that, you know, since he's Mars, and the MARS beacon was just lit, the injury/sore arm could just have flash-healed, which would be quite noticeable. He may have thought that someone was casting a healing psynergy on it, thus the 'touching/grabbing my arm' comment.
However, some questions are much more valid... Where's Isaac's boat, for instance. It's out there, somewhere, and you even have the orb to help guide it (whether you like it or not). But it never shows up. This is likely simply an oversight by the programmers, however, and has little relevancy to the plot.
Now, how Isaac and co got that far without cyclone is a good question, but the easiest answer would be "they took a different route there than you". That's more plot device than plot hole...
If you think about some of these so-called holes, you can easily fill them in. However, lingering questions are what I'd like to see answered... The most obvious one being: What the hell happened to Alex?!
how is it that you can only get to vale past the venus lighthouse?
i doubt there was only one beach on that continent, the only other way is via glitch so how is it possible for isaacs group to get so far without very much equipment?
As much as you doubt there was only one beach, the game clearly shows the entire continent, and there is no beach...so you just gotta regard that as fact.
And what do you mean get far without equipment?
If you mean after Venus lighthouse... they had tons of psynergy and equipment by then.
And Isaacs boat doesn't need a beach to land/sail from as there was a dock at the end of #1.
Well I imagine that after dreadbeard was defeated, the island must have sunk into the sea.
And isn't it not reachable unless you get lost or something?
that or like prox it isn't on any map/reachable.
Also, did Alex know Saturos and Mernardi died when he talked about using the orb?
*doesn't remember*
But what if you did not transfer the events, and you never killed Deadbeard? Even if you did... It still does not make sense that you can lost in that tiny sea, in which the island is nearly too big for it. I would imagine that if the island were to sink, then Karagol sea would flood and be connected to the Ocean.
Also, how is there a dock that far from the ocean? Looking at where Lalivero is... HOW CAN THERE BE A BOAT THERE (I know that there is one, but how did they get a boat to allow Ocean access above sea level (and the rivers flow into the ocean with waterfalls), seriously)???
Oh, also, don't forget about the other beach in Angara... The one with the mountain that was placed too high, so you could explore some of the lands of GS1 as Felix. However, that is mostly a glitch, the one that squizzy pointed out, so... Oh yeah, I also forgot... A boat can not get there, but there is a small strip if river neat Champa that separates that coast from the rest of Angara. I know because I tried maneuvering the flying boat around the trees, but it can not be done.
No, Alex did not know. Lol, it would be kind of funny if he did though. That would be a major plot hole, since he even followed the Lalivero soldiers.
Have a nice day.
Edit: Also, why is Hesperia so much closer to Angara in the first Golden Sun than in the second? See? Crossbone Isle is much larger than the Karagol sea. Also, I forgot... Where did the sea spires come from (the ones that prevent you from going north of Imil in GS2), and where did the beach neat Imil go (the one with green grass around it).
http://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/GBA/GoldenSun-World.png
http://www.vgmaps.com/Atlas/GBA/GoldenSun-LostAge-World.png
The dock is right next to the ocean, the only problem is the waterfall...
Well, seeing as they obviously went down the waterfall, maybe isaacs ship was stronger?
(all i can think of)
Even if you don't transfer data, i believe the gs1 team would have defeated Dreadbeard.
Only if you won the game without killing him, THEN transfered over would that make no sense.
Anyway, if you choose the wrong tourists in the boat event, the boat ends up on Crossbone island... unless the boat could fly, theres no way crossbone island is in the ocean... it'd be in the big water mass in the middle of Angara.. yet when you go there it seems to be surrounded by ocean water.
This is why i believe that Crossbone island only appears to those who get lost and isn't actually visitable normally.
And most of the land changes are due to the earthquake from the venus lighthouse, and the tidal wave.
Wow... you didn't realize that the only reason Crossbone Island is way over there is because of game mechanics? The island is in the middle of the Karagol Sea. Compared to the rest of the world, it's been zoomed up quite a bit.
Ah... well i guess it's just not visible in TLA then...
ok, thats one mystery solved!
Of course not. It wasn't even visible on the world map in TBS! It's implied that it's a REALLY small island in the middle of the Karagol Sea. That's why it doesn't show up on either world map.
I do know why the island was placed in the ocean.
However, the earthquake separating the continents even more does not fully explain why Felix and co. have the map with the separated continents if it only happened after Venus Lighthouse. As for the Tidal Wave... I thought it would have pushed Indra into Gondowan, not further away. Also, how can it get on the other side of the two continuents to push them away? Also, one more thing... If you look at the brown patch on the one continent beside Angara, you should notice that it looks slightly similar to the one on Hesperia. However, it is still different, and there are different patches of trees and land on Hesperia for the second game. Also, what happened to the beach near Imil? Wasn't there one there before? I suppose it was replaced with a cliff though.
Even if they were implying that it is a small island, I can almost see all of the Karagol sea just by walking around it and zooming out. It would have to be a pretty tiny island for me not to see it, lol. My guess for Crossbone Isle is that there are teleporters or something on the waves, so you will end up far away if you activate one. Another part of the guessing is the reason why it is not in the ocean in GS2 is because it is north of Imil, out of bounds (storyline wise anyway), and the dark energy of the island prevents snow. Besides, I have seen small islands as well... They could have made it like one of the tiny islets near the Apoji Islands.
His boat could be strong enough, but I am still wondering how they got the boat up there in the first place. Also, wasn't the dock on the left side of the village when facing north?
Also... The mystery of Isaac getting to the higher levels of Jupiter Lighthouse without Hover. If there were a back door, which could make sense, it would have to be like a pit in the floor (because I, at times, have spent hours in Jupiter Lighthouse exploring, and there are no other doors that lead anywhere else in the Lighthouse). But this does not explain how he got so high.
Have a nice day.
We know how Isaac got into Jupiter Lighthouse: Felix opened the door for him early on, remember? The second question is: Do you need Hover to get that far in the Lighthouse? If you don't then there's no plot hole.
You guys do realize that Crossbone was located north of Imil in programming, right? lol
Quote from: Frog on 01, November, 2009, 01:11:00 AM
2. How did Isaac and crew get into the jupiter lighthouse without Cyclone?
This one i can't explain.
The only valid explanation would be that they followed Felix in and simply took the shortcuts, which is why you see them at a point where you were earlier. Either that, or they have excellent jumping skills...
I would imagine that they used a pit to enter, or the front door when it was opened, now that you reminded me. However, as for not having Hover... I thought that they needed Hover to get closer to the top of the lighthouse, since the elevator system does not work yet either. Hover to get onto that beam that takes you to the higher levels. This mystery is almost solved. We have concluded that Isaac and co. went through the front door.
Still not sure about how he got so high though, or another one... How is that switch a trap that Agatio and Karst set up? To me, I see that Isaac (who stepped on the switch) just wasn't paying attention. But why did Kart say that they set up the trap?
As for where Crossbone Isle was... I KNEW IT!!! I can't believe that I knew it, but I did! Heehee! Oh, and this would make sense too, as to why it isn't on the map. Prox isn't seen on the map either! Okay then, the mystery of Crossbone and Karagol is solved (and there is no snow because of the magic of the Pirate King, Deadbeard, and the magic lingers when he dies). Oh yeah, there might be random teleporting barriers around Crossbone and throughout Karagol to allow the ship to get to it, or maybe some of those Red Tornadoes as well?.
Still not fully sure how the docks work on a fresh water river though (in Lalivero), especially with there not being a safer connection to the Ocean than having to sail down waterfalls. Why isn't Piers' ship that strong anyway?
Have a nice day.
Actually, as for Isaac needing hover, theres evidence of another path in the lighthouse!
Each lighthouse has 2 "lifts" going from the top to the bottom... yet you never see the lifts in Jupiter, i doubt they were destroyed..
This means that the lifts must have stopped in another room, one that Felix never sees.
meaning there ARE more rooms in the lighthouse.
(...This is probably the dumbest answer yet... but it makes sense)
Oh and Karst set the trap so (hopefully) someone falls off leaving less people to fight.
(cept felix does anyway)
Wait, but the lifts only work if the lighthouse is lit, right?
Also, if a Lemurian ship resists a huge tidal wave (at the beginning of TLA) and the whirpools at the Sea of Time, I doubt that Isaac's ship (which is also Lemurian) would sink easily.
Not those lifts... I think he means like how you got to the top of the Mercury and Venus lighthouses. They count as lifts, but they're not the main elevators.
But how did Karst make the switch fit in nicely without messing up the brick floor?
Also, there could be evidence of other floors, but then wouldn't Isaac using these "lifts" allow Felix and co. to find these hidden rooms from which Isaac and co. came from?
Have a nice day.
Well then the only possible answer lies with Agatio and Karst, as they have psynergies you can't get.
Maybe they "helped" Isaac and crew into the trap?
and as for getting to the top of the lighthouse, It's possible Alex warped them up there to help you.
Quote from: Salanewt on 06, November, 2009, 11:01:54 PM
But how did Karst make the switch fit in nicely without messing up the brick floor?
Also, there could be evidence of other floors, but then wouldn't Isaac using these "lifts" allow Felix and co. to find these hidden rooms from which Isaac and co. came from?
Have a nice day.
Remember how the switch was already there in the first place? It's part of a puzzle! Karst simply used it for an... alternative use. A combination of patience and good timing triggered the 'trap'. Which was basically waiting until Isaac and co got in the right position. You do realize that you don't need to build a trap to spring one, right?
This is true. Anyway, I thought that Isaac accused Karst of setting up the trap? Also, I seriously doubt that Alex would teleport Isaac, who is trying to stop the lighthouses from being lot, to Felix to stop him.
Have a nice day.
I doubt as well. It doesn't make much sense... But, on the other hand, he also didn't help Agatio and Karst when they fought with Isaac right? BUT, he makes Felix go help Isaac and co. instead of letting him go through to light the lighthouse.
Man, Alex is very confusing... :Sweat:
Maybe because Alex had some idea that the Wise One would try to stop Felix, and succeed if they did not join with Isaac? Besides, Alex does fully heal Felix and Piers when they decide to go to the top of the lighthouse. If you defeat Agatio and Karst, Alex will heal them, so... I think Alex might only be helping the people who have the ability to light the current lighthouse, and most likely will. Isaac would not have lit the lighthouses, which is why Alex did not help them himself, and why he helped Felix and Piers (so he could guarantee their safety until they reach the top to light the lighthouse). So basically, Alex kisses the arses of whoever has the ability to light the lighthouses.
Seriously though... How did Felix and co. have the map of how the continents are postitioned when they were much closer together in the first golden sun? This does not make any sense.
Have a nice day.
How hard is this to understand? Karst pressed the switch - thus she sprung the trap on them. Simple as that.
As far as Alex is concerned, he wanted the lighthouses lit, so while Agatio and Karst dealt with brats he could care less about, he wanted to make sure that Felix got to the top without getting too worn out. After the long trip up, all he needed to do was make sure that they were nice and refreshed, just in case.
The switch thing is easy to understand, but I thought that Isaac stepped on the switch?
Also, we still have not discussed the change of the World Map used. I am still trying to think about how Felix and co. had the map of the world when the continents only really separated further during the transition between the two games. Shouldn't Felix' map be the same as Isaac's, but with the whole world instead of just the Angara and Northern Gondowan areas? How did Felix get a new map that quickly?
Have a nice day.
uh... no? How would he step on the switch AND get caught up in the trap at the same time? Do you even remember where that switch is? The groups move so close together they share the same sprite after all!
Hm... Perhaps he ran ahead and stepped on it on purpose? Lol.
Anyway, have any ideas for how the map changed?
Have a nice day.
Quote from: Salanewt on 07, November, 2009, 06:20:23 PM
Anyway, have any ideas for how the map changed?
Have a nice day.
...Game mechanics. Read: It DIDN'T. You just got access to more of it is all. DUH.
Yes, but in the first Golden Sun, you could clearly see Hesperia right beside Angara.
Have a nice day.
Who said Felix had a map?
Maybe that's just for the PLAYER to see...
That makes sense... Oh, now I get how Isaac had a different map!!! He set out with the same copy that Lunpa set out with, but Felix was given a more recent copy! Oh... Still does not make sense how hesperia can be seen very close to Angara though, but this might be the best reason for why the maps that the players view is different.
That would make sense, for the player to see only, but then how would Felix and co. know exactly where to teleport?
Have a nice day.
...because they've been there before? It's probably a coordinate based system with the psynergy, and the map is simply a representation for the player to understand.
Makes sense.
I can not think of any more plot holes...
Have a nice day.
The vast majority of the stuff here weren't plot holes to begin with, but rather gameplay mechanics... >_>
True. However, I can at times call Gameplay Mechanics as mini-plot holes, even if they have nothing to do with the plot.
Have a nice day.
No... no you can't... You said it yourself that they have nothing to do with the plot, so how the hell can they be a plot hole? Like I said before, the rules and definitions of things do not just change as you want them to...
I know this. What I mean is that sometimes game mechanics affect the plot in mysterious ways... I play enough video games that do this to know this, as do many people (but not all games do this).
Have a nice day.
No... no they don't. Not at all. Game mechanics are simply that - game mechanics. Plot is something we like to call STORYLINE. They're two totally separate things.
In some of the games that I have played, the game mechanics do affect the plot. They are both different things, but the plot is still affected (I don't know how or why, but they are) by the way that these games are coded, and that is all that I have to say on the matter before we get into another argument.
Now... Looking at the direction that the tidal wave came from in the second Golden Sun, wouldn't it have pushed Indra further west instead of down? Of course, it is hard to tell because the camera might have been at a different angle, but they never showed the island turning (well, slightly when they first had the tidal wave in view, but that makes it make less sense about what angle the tidal wave came from).
Have a nice day.
That would be graphical limitations, Sala...
Also, here's an example of why Gameplay Mechanics have no effect on plot, other than to deceive the player into thinking it does.
I point to Rockman Zero 3, and the recurring boss Omega. He's easy as hell, but the game repeatedly implies that Omega is one of the most powerful things in existence. Problem is, you cannot properly convey that power over the GBA. Omega isn't really that hard until ZX, where he's a freaking BEAST, though this is his final form.
Also, psynergy is supposed to be a powerful force, stronger than any sword. You know what's stronger than any psynergetic spell? NO LESS THAN THREE SWORDS. Gameplay mechanics are misleading, but they have nothing to do with actual plot. PLOT AND STORYLINE DO.
Quote from: Salanewt on 01, November, 2009, 10:16:00 AM
(I thought they said that only Jupiter Adepts could learn Reveal)
Maybe they got another Jupiter adept, then killed him/her... :Sweat:
just joking :medal:
sorry, kinda of topic
Remind me why this topic was locked, again?
Anyway, I just noticed something: The Inns in the game don't charge for Kraden. It's still 6 coins for a room in the Daila Inn, and 4 when a party member's down, and 8 once Piers joins, and 16 once Isaac & co. join. That means 2 coins per person, except for Kraden who is mysteriously free.
Senior's discount? Some places do it on Earth, perhaps people in Weyard had the same idea?
I am still interesting in finding out why Hesperia could be seen in-game when playing the first game, yet they moved it so far away for the second. I doubt that the tidal wave washed over all of Angara to move it. I also read Role's last post, but I never described a graphical limitation. Besides, with a bit of ASM, those waves could easily be repositioned to push Indra in the right direction.
Wait, when was this topic locked? I thought that Role would have locked it before she became a regular member, but when I look at the post before yours, it looks like it was opened without our knowledge.
Have a nice day.
The tidal wave was accompanied by a massive earthquake, strong enough to rip a peninsula off a continent. It RIPPED A PIECE OFF OF A CONTINENT. Besides, remember as well that the tidal wave was caused by A GOD OF THE OCEAN. Now, being a god, he can do whatever he bloody well likes, remember?
Sure, senior's discount. What about Piers then?
Besides, 100% discount for seniors? At every single Inn in the game? Even when they have different rates and different numbers of beds and different numbers of rooms and everything?
Oh yeah, now it makes more sense. I am still a bit surprised that nobody in Hesperia or Atteka noticed though.
But remember, Piers looks the same as the others. He does not look nearly as old as Kraden. Or, there could be a formula for the price that involves him, it just does not exist in the data? Kind of like a x2 thing.
Have a nice day.
Kraden, like Chuck Norris, doesn't sleep, he waits.
But he still needs to get food sometime. After all, he gripes about being hungry quite frequently. Then again, so does Felix.
Maybe they're starving him of food and sleep, but, like some old men, he stubbornly clings to life?
As for the boats...Perhaps Alex took the boat tied up at Idejima, hiding it somewhere, (underwater?), then makes up that stuff about wanting a boat to lead Felix's party on, then at Hesperia, after rescuing Karst and Agatio, he takes Isaac's ship for some reason, but it breaks down and sinks (most likely due to Garet), so he has to go back and use his own ship? Or maybe it's the ship from Idejima that breaks down. Maybe he's a joyrider?
Saturos and Menardi fall down to the hole where the light goes up, maybe that's the reason that caused the earthquake and tidal wave? Venus Lighthouse is the only one that caused an earthquake, that makes sense for the tidal wave
No, the energy probably destroyed their bodies. The reason it caused it was because it's the VENUS lighthouse. The Mercury started by beginning to correct oceanic currents (see: Champa's problems). Venus began fixing the land, thus the earthquakes (and naturally tsunamis, due to how they're formed). The jolt also awakened Poseidon, who caused the great wave at the start of TLA (if you actually talk to NPCs in Lemuria, you find out that his return caused the wave).
Jupiter whipped up the air, which had become stagnant, causing storms and the like. This intensified the cold of the north thanks to the turbulence (trying to head up there before Jupiter shows that it was already frozen over). Mars breathed back the warmth of life into the land.
Do you guys think that this was the old emplacement for mercury/venus lighthouse?
(http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/8615/mercurylighthouse.png)
@Kai Hong: lol wut?
@luluthefirst: Umm no they died...
@Role: Exactly, you hit the nail on the head!
@luluthefirst again: No... just no...
The only thing I saw with the light houses placement was this...
:MarsStar:
:MercuryStar:
:Sol:
:VenusStar:
:JupiterStar:
And if you put the orignal moon shaped world back togther they make this shape (or a square) around the sol santum...
:MarsStar: :MercuryStar:
:Sol:
:JupiterStar: :VenusStar:
Also in the venus light house some things you push into place make a square like this, meaning that might have been the orignal spot for the light houses.
Edit: sorry for all the emotes...
Don't apologize, you did the emotes properly - this is one of the proper ways to use them.
You also make a very valid point - I'm impressed, looks like there's hope for you yet.
Is...that a compliment...or an insult? Idon'tknowwho'strollingwhoanymore.jpg
I guess it depends on your perspective. I DID +coin +respect him, so...
Hmm.... and i did plus respect role before i read the above comment
I take it as a compliment. I'm not picky I'll take what I can get.
And now back on topic...
I know why they didn't do this but for the story's realism, why didn't they build the Mercury light house In (or at least near Lemura).
For plot reasons they couldn't but, what about putting it where the Venus light house is??? its closer right???
(And I know I am shooting my own ideas down but...)
then again they couldn't because the earth quake is a major plot device.
but having the Venus light house up north wouldn't be weird because come on, the Mars light house is in the COLDEST PLACE OF ALL!
with Isaac's ship missing, the Jupiter light house hole, and the other little things we all over looked when we first played are strange.
And as Role said these aren't plot holes, but they are loosely thought plot devices or over looked areas of the game.
But who are we to complain? This just gives them possibility's to add side quests to GS 4 when it comes out.
Why at the start of TLA, we don't go to the world map from the Suhalla Gate and the Venus Lighthouse ?
Aslo that's a good point, why the Mars Lighthouse (fire) is in the coldest place ever? Mercury Lighthouse or Jupiter Lighthouse should be in the coldest place ever, Jupiter is the wind, and mercury is the water...
For venus lighthouse/suhulla gate: You can think of it as the area you passed through between them in the first game as being unimportant to the plot, however, it became important when you crossed through that area in TLA. Important areas get their own map, not-so-important ones do not. Law of conservation of detail.
As for why mars LH is in the coldest place... no one ever said that the LHs needed to be in areas similar to their power. In fact, placing mars LH in the north could have been done so as to make that area more liveable (similar to how mercury's water of hermes makes living in the cold easier, by overcoming illness, except in this case it would be by raw elemental power). The fire clan is said to have some kind of natural immunity to the cold, as well, so if they were already inhabiting the area, it makes sense that they would build their LH in a place that they would be best suited to protect.
Also, if you look at the distances from the sol sanctum, of the elemental rocks and lighthouses, here's the general ranking (1 being the farthest):
Lighthouses:
Jupiter-1
Mars-2
Venus-3
Mercury-4
Rocks:
Mercury-1
Jupiter-2
Venus-3
Mars-4
...Most of them seem to balance out, except for Jupiter.
Also, look at the climates of each rock and each lighthouse: Aqua rock is on a tropical island, Mercury lighthouse is on an icy peninsula. Mars lighthouse is in he frozen northern reaches, Magma rock is an equatorial volcano (comparing the layout of Weyard to earth, with an 'equator' and 'poles'). Airs rock is in the dead center of a continent surrounded by sand, while Jupiter lighthouse is on the northern part of a continent, but is surrounded by mountains. Gaia rock is on an island, surrounded by ocean and Venus lighthouse is right by the coast.
I'm getting an odd 'trapped' vibe from the positions of Venus and Jupiter, but that might be just from looking too hard at this.
From the way things seem, the Rocks were dotted along the inner-crescent of Weyard in ancient times; on the eastern side of the world. Aqua and Airs were probably on the south-eastern area, while Gaia and Magma are closer to the north-eastern. Apojii was most likely connected to Osenia at one point, and Izumo connected to Angara. I guess Osenia was also a bit further west than it is in The Lost Age, while Gondowan was probably completely attached to Angara (moving Magma Rock up slightly). For placement, things seem a little bit off, but I would imagine having a large "C" to the west of Lemuria. Of course, since the continents were a bit larger as well, the placement could make a bit more sense when actually pieced together.
As for the differences between Gaia and Venus Lighthouse, one is a barren rock on an island that is surrounded by ocean. It is surrounded by trees, but the rock itself is barren. The other is a large tower in the middle of a small forest. Inside of these structures, we have sand in the tower and vines, plants, and floating leaves in the other.
Ok another point to bring up.
first
There's about 11 elemental structures in the world.
4 lighthouses
4 rocks
and the 3 towers (have the left, right, and center prongs in them.)
next there about (more then 6) magical powered dungons. (not including the 11)
5 in GS 1
And alot in GS 2 (4 of them contain the 5 most powerful summons)
There alot of caves with magical puzzles and other stuff around the world that can't be built with out magic or solved with magic.
Now for my idea, some one (not me) takes the current map of the world and the orignal map from Lermura and line up each thing.
My guess (wild guess) is that the lighthouses will line up the rocks will fourn some sorta pattern and the magical areas will mostly line up around the orignal moon shaped world.
If it does then hats off to the game makers! If not then we are just overlooking everything and wastring our time.
Dunno. If you were paying attention in Dark Dawn, when the world was 'fixing itself', supposedly Gaia Rock got overtaken by the falls or something. It's why they all moved to Yamatai, IIRC.
I'm ever asking why they removed the old GS1 world in Golden Sun TLA... In Dark Dawn they removed the GS2 world instead lol, and with that "Walking Forward With Determination" music it makes more exciting
my guess is that in GSDD the world isn't fixing its self but destroying its self dew to the sudden shock of power from the golden sun.
And the black holes are to try and fix that...
the saying is "to much of a good thing is bad"
I mean there is three levels to the Ocean!!
And the highest level is where the golden sun is, and also where the big black hole is....
(And if you go with "the world is alive thing" then you could say the world is in a feeding freinzy and then pukeing its guts out... every 10 years...)
Quote from: luluthefirst on 11, April, 2011, 11:00:35 AM
I'm ever asking why they removed the old GS1 world in Golden Sun TLA... In Dark Dawn they removed the GS2 world instead lol, and with that "Walking Forward With Determination" music it makes more exciting
What are you talking about? The land in Dark Dawn is only what you saw Pre-Karagol Sea in TBS, only with a lot more detail. So it's not just the GS2 world, it's that and half of the GS1 world as well. However, the amount of detail they put into it made it feel as big as the GS1 overworld at times. I'm actually excited to see the rest of the world fleshed out with greater detail and with more places and towns. For example, Ayuthay was around in the first game, but your party was too concerned about getting through the Lamakan Desert alive to bother trekking south to find it. To be able to see a lot of these towns and their histories from the previous games?
I'm all for it, personally. I just hope that we see someone actually MAD at the adepts for unleashing alchemy. Just being implied, but then everywhere you go "hey, it's the hero guys! Let's try to be cool adepts like them!". REALLY? You make a big deal about the strife against adepts in the world, but everywhere I go Adepts are the coolest thing since sliced bread! THAT is something I want to see addressed.
QuoteI mean there is three levels to the Ocean!!
And the highest level is where the golden sun is, and also where the big black hole is....
I restate my point.
Role's quote.
Quotebut everywhere I go Adepts are the coolest thing since sliced bread!
I GSDD you don't leave the upper level of the world. And people are still better off then before.
But I bet the rest or the world is differen't.
Can't wait for GS 4!
No, that's the world recrafting itself.
Some places in the ocean are supposed to be deeper than others. Some lands at higher elevations. The wreck caused by stagnation is suddenly being fixed, sharply and drastically, as though peroxide was just poured on the deep gashes in the world. It's gonna hurt, ALOT, but in the end balance will be restored to the world.
As far as the tiered waters are concerned, they're probably filling up. Won't be long before crossbone isle is but an underwater area.
Actually, Ayuthay never existed in the first Golden Sun. If you look to the left of Champa in both maps, you will notice a new peninsula in Dark Dawn. Ayuthay is actually on that new peninsula. Lamakan Desert is beside the area near Kalay, which has barely changed aside from deforestation. However, Champa was pretty much pulled far towards the east from where it once stood. Come to think of it, it looks like Angara grew nearly twice in size to be able to fit almost all of the central/southern areas (which explains the increase in detail).
So from this information, we can deduct that the oceans have probably gone down in size because of the massive expanding that the continents have done.
Ayuthay had to have existed, considering its' supposed long history. After all, they're descendents of a tribe of ancients from before Alchemy was sealed in the first place!
Quote from: Salanewt on 13, April, 2011, 10:42:00 PM
Actually, Ayuthay never existed in the first Golden Sun. If you look to the left of Champa in both maps, you will notice a new peninsula in Dark Dawn. Ayuthay is actually on that new peninsula. Lamakan Desert is beside the area near Kalay, which has barely changed aside from deforestation. However, Champa was pretty much pulled far towards the east from where it once stood. Come to think of it, it looks like Angara grew nearly twice in size to be able to fit almost all of the central/southern areas (which explains the increase in detail).
So from this information, we can deduct that the oceans have probably gone down in size because of the massive expanding that the continents have done.
I love how you believe that the TLA and TBS maps actually showed everything that was there. Has it occurred to you that only places relevant to the plot or sidequests are shown? Hell, most of the TBS towns weren't in TLA at all. Apparently, they just stopped existing, since you're totally right in that Ayuthay couldn't have existed before Dark Dawn.
You know, despite the fact that it blatantly says it did, as Jamie pointed out.
I would understand the possibility of Ayuthay's existence if there were even just a tiny peninsula on southern Angara, but there isn't one there until Dark Dawn. Of course, the sea levels could have gone down since the events of the second game, and that would explain why the continents have grown in size. However, like all of the other new dungeons to have come out of nowhere, it technically did not exist on land in the time period of the first two games. While many of these places could have existed before, they were not likely shown because they were either underground or on the seafloor.
Of course, I could be as wrong about this whole thing as others were wrong about the likelihood of light and dark adepts.
Jamie: That is true, though I realize that I may have used a poor choice of wording. I was trying to say that the peninsula that it is on was not in the first games, and was therefore non-existent in the first two games. However, given the nature of the oceans, it is likely that the water went down enough to bring it back into the world above the sea. As for the people who live there, it is quite possible that they came from previously existing areas to explore for treasure; which might have given them their information. That would also explain why much of that area consists of desert-like landscapes for a part of the game too.
Role: I am not trying to pick a fight here, I am just making some observations. However, it is not just an increase in detail overall - I mean, Kalay and the Lamakan Desert were left in the same positions by Camelot. However, many other things were left in their positions as well, and now we have new mountains and stuff.
Hang on, why am I even debating anything? I just tried to talk about my input in this topic, some of which was rejected before I could explain my part more, and it has suddenly become a debate? I really have to stop talking in these topics...
The golden sun happens. Things get shifted around. A town that existed further inland is now on a peninsula that didn't exist before.
There. Now everyone can be happy.
... actually, I like it. Thanks leaf!
Edit: I am wondering if we managed to get off of the topic a while ago, since this topic is for discussing plot holes.
(http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/4838/isle.png)
Dunno what is that, and how can the Peninsula can forward over there? Maybe it goes to the top of this isle? Is that Indra going to be moved by the earthquake?
Aslo did you seen this near the Altmiller cave?
(http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/4924/differences.png)
------------------GS1-----------------------------------------GS2
I think this just means bad planning...
Quote from: leafgreen386 on 14, April, 2011, 12:49:36 PM
The golden sun happens. Things get shifted around. A town that existed further inland is now on a peninsula that didn't exist before.
There. Now everyone can be happy.
This is actually the official answer. Look at what happened to Kolima - it got moved halfway across the continent, and replaced a freaking swap.
well that is explained some what in GSDD.
but how do you explain the fact that something that you were ment to see in GS 1 got deleted and changed In Golden sun TLA?!
I call bad planning... mostly because they started working on the project to be one game but it was to long and had to make it two.
But then.... WHY IS THE place where the Jupiter Light house moved farther away when Ivan's father (Can't remebr his name) talked about it being a place where he got lost when wandering around trying to find work. he diddn't have a boat! A storm came and he was rescued by A GROUP of wind adapts and then taken and given some advice.
You guys call it a plot hole.
Role calls it A plot device.
Well I call Shenanigans!
Do you know where to download Golden Sun source code ? I remember I got it but I've lost it... It was from Golden Sun Hacking or somethings
zman: Hammet? That is/was actually Ivan's master, not father. Hey, I bet Ivan is the leader of Kalay now... anyway, perhaps the quake from Venus sent it further? The actual changes to Angara might have been poor planning, but it even shows the world on the map that way. It could also be possible that the overworld takes the shape of the map, and the world is only detailed the way that Isaac and co. look at it. That could very easily be a plot device, as Isaac and co. are not actually supposed to go to the places that are incorrect on the map.
I know he is not his father! I just was forgetting his name and... Rember when Hammet said "Ivan I have always thought of you as a son" or something like that...
Yeah, but the technical term would not quite be father. I mean, I have had friends in the past who have considered me to be like a sibling of theirs, but that does not actually make it so. Anyway, it is possible that he wandered around certain parts of the world in a boat when he lost his way.
Lulu: What do you mean by source code, ROM? I am a bit confused by your request. Still though, I am not sure if it belongs in here.
I remember it was an open-source clone of golden sun, because I saw GPL License v3 on top of every files
According to the worldmap:
http://www.goldensunhacking.net/downloads/TLA_WorldMap.gif
Why did they left the Crossbone Isle to the top left?
umm your link failed....
Quote from: luluthefirst on 19, April, 2011, 03:04:41 PM
I remember it was an open-source clone of golden sun, because I saw GPL License v3 on top of every files
According to the worldmap:
http://www.goldensunhacking.net/downloads/TLA_WorldMap.gif
Why did they left the Crossbone Isle to the top left?
That's not crossbone isle, silly. That's the drifting Idejima. You know, from the start of TLA. CBI isn't even in TLA.
Quote from: Role on 19, April, 2011, 06:30:43 PM
Quote from: luluthefirst on 19, April, 2011, 03:04:41 PM
I remember it was an open-source clone of golden sun, because I saw GPL License v3 on top of every files
According to the worldmap:
http://www.goldensunhacking.net/downloads/TLA_WorldMap.gif
Why did they left the Crossbone Isle to the top left?
That's not crossbone isle, silly. That's the drifting Idejima. You know, from the start of TLA. CBI isn't even in TLA.
No, look at the very top of the world, there are the crossbone isle (where you go to it by the pink tornado or by the karagol sea selecting wrong peoples it's at the left of Prox)
What part of "That is Idejima" did you not understand?
As for the glitchy landmass next to it, I don't think that's ever used, and it CERTAINLY isn't CBI, which looked totally different. Further to the right is lemuria, IIRC.
I can't understand, do you mean the center left of the world ? I'm talking about the isle at left to prox, there are still the GS1 crossbone isle (but you can't access it)
Island left of prox? I don't even see prox on the map! I think Prox's World Map area is stored in a different map entirely.
Edit: Waaaait - I see what you're talking about. You're right, it IS.
Maybe they were planning on having it being a recurring dungeon, which is why it was back in DD? They may have just changed their minds since the two are connected as they are in this game.
And they think Felix couldn't access to this isle because he couldn't reach Suhalla Desert, or maybe is there any other way to access it?
I tried accessing it with cheats, there are no tornado and no location for this crossbone isle
Quote from: zman9000 on 19, April, 2011, 04:59:35 PM
umm your link failed....
It's a 8192x8192 gif image, it may not fit on your browser, you may save it (right click on the link -> save target as)
EDIT: The Crossbone Isle is still in Dark Dawn, but what is the real reason they had keep the Crossbone Isle in TLA?
I just said, they were probably planning it on being recurring. They may have been planning to put it into TLA, but then changed their minds on the account that it's technically the same journey.
Also the area at the top center of the map is definitely Prox. The way I ripped the world map didn't account for areas that used different tilesets/palettes so it appears glitchy instead. That's also why there is a complete lack of snow everywhere there should be.
Ah, I see. Is there a way to rip it with the proper tilesets and palettes?
I still haven't found where it switches them on the world map :Sweat:
You're a smart guy. You'll figure it out. Besides, it's not like we're rushing you. Well, not on this. The editor could use a release, though. ^-^
I think they wanted to keep all of the previous areas in the game, and that is why they have it. Either that, or they only added the TLA parts to the original world.
Before we get back into topic, you should know that you can easily do it. Also, to venture farther from the original topic, there is a palette-swap that occurs in Eastern Angara. I think it makes the whole area like Prox, actually. It could be that they kept the old areas in the game for testing, since not allowing the player to return would mean that they do not have to clean the old scripts up. Come to think of it, there is a Daila warp somewhere around there too. None of these are actual plot holes though, but they are still kind of neat to point out.
Now, can anyone think of any plot holes that can be found during the transition from the GBA games to Dark Dawn?
for the very left of lemuria, there are multiples Idejima, that's for the earthquake animation (they can't move a layer though)
Quote from: Salanewt on 19, April, 2011, 10:30:33 PM
Before we get back into topic, you should know that you can easily do it. Also, to venture farther from the original topic, there is a palette-swap that occurs in Eastern Angara. I think it makes the whole area like Prox, actually. It could be that they kept the old areas in the game for testing, since not allowing the player to return would mean that they do not have to clean the old scripts up. Come to think of it, there is a Daila warp somewhere around there too. None of these are actual plot holes though, but they are still kind of neat to point out.
Because with the boat we can travel all the world, that's why there is a palette-swap occuring when we go to an isle that is cold, in GS1, it's not scripted, because we are not using a boat, I tried walk through walls and go to the North of Angara, there are no palette-swap occuring, it occures if we enter in an area
Aside from "Where's Isaac's boat?", I can't rally think of any.
Clearly the contigan workers that attached the wings to Pier's ship tore it apart, and devoured it for sustenance as they worked.
Either that, or they took it for payment for adding the wings to the second ship? Since Babi died, it is questionable as to whether it had to be returned at all.
I saw a glitch with the Mars Lighthouse, there are some video on YouTube which the Mars Lighthouse are pink and one video which the Mars Lighthouse are red (mine are red too, but in other of my saves it's pink), what is the cause of it?
Gonna need screenshots to know what exactly you're talking about.
I'm going with gender confusion, final answer.
EDIT: Or maybe you're talking about before/after you melt most of the ice in there. As I recall there's a palette swap at some point in the process.
(http://img862.imageshack.us/img862/2029/diffcolors.png)
No hacks has been used with saves
That is exactly what is happening. After you put the Mars Star in the dragon's mouth (the one after the Agatio/Karst dragons), the majority of the ice in the place melts and the walls change to be a warmer orange-red colour.
Wow, I didn't know it changed the overworld sprite too. So THAT'S why there's five lighthouses in the sprite viewer...
I'd like to know why Jenna is mysteriously absent from Isaac's cabin. And why there are only two beds in that cabin. And 30 years is a pretty short time for all those kingdoms and beastmen to spring up in. None of those are really plot holes, but I'm curious.
It never really explains why Champa have remained pirates rather than doing something with all those jewels Briggs got.
I think I can explain most of that for you.
1: Jenna lives in Kalay, helping Vale survivors (they all survived I think) because they were not satisfied with Vault for some reason.
2: Two beds? Either Matthew and Tyrell sleep on the floor, or Isaac and Garet bunk together... um... that actually explains why Jenna has chosen to help those in Kalay instead of live with Isaac. What appeared in my mind is probably inaccurate anyway. We should never point this out to those who would write a dirty fan fiction about Dark Dawn.
3: Most of the places kind of existed before, but the Golden Sun had to uncover some of it. It is also known as the Viagra of Weyard, if that makes sense. Higher populations would mean that they can construct more, and then we have the kingdoms. The beastmen were normal people at one point, but the Viagra of Weyard somehow made their hormones too high, resulting in too much follicle growth (all they say is that the Golden Sun transforms them, I am just adding to it).
4: I think they used those jewels for food. However, seeing as the ocean is kind of messed up, it is not likely that they would be able to fish again. They already said something about the land being poor for agriculture, and it is a small territory to begin with.
QuoteAnd 30 years is a pretty short time for all those kingdoms and beastmen to spring up in. None of those are really plot holes, but I'm curious.
It was blatantly said IN GAME that they were already there. They just weren't important to the first story, so they were ignored. For someone who loves Amiti so much, I'm shocked that you'd be asking about this, since it's in Ayuthay that all this is explained.
I did see the explanation, but it was first touched on in Harapa as far as I remember. Also, I don't think 'the programmers are lazy' is a good reason.
Is there a relation between Garoh and Morgal by the way? I haven't found any mention of the werewolves in Dark Dawn.
QuoteAlso, I don't think 'the programmers are lazy' is a good reason.
It's not. Simply put, if the location has no impact on the story, there's no reason to include it. You can't possibly think that TLA's weyard only had those towns in it - if so, then Weyard's nearly a freaking ghost planet, and humanity's probably screwed. DD proved that places were there - they just weren't important enough in the story to be made.
There's also space issues, and the fact that camelot had no way of knowing that they needed to make towns for the sequel they'd make seven years in the future.
QuoteThere's also space issues, and the fact that camelot had no way of knowing that they needed to make towns for the sequel they'd make seven years in the future.
Or did they?
Camelot invented time travel! Its a evil conspiracy I tell ya!
But really there was a few things between GS 1 and 2 that could have been planned better.
I mean they did make them right after each other. They must have had a plan? Right?
I did notice that there were some useless settlements though, being both irrelevant to plot and kind of pointless to visit. However, this might have been to show that there were some of these useless towns in existence. Either way, they have included more than just plot-specific places in the games at various times.
Thats true. but also the fact there is only one area like that in GS1 and the changes with GS2 and the locations makes me think that durring makeing TLA they decided to change something with the layout of the world.
Quote from: Salanewt on 27, April, 2011, 05:50:35 PM
I did notice that there were some useless settlements though, being both irrelevant to plot and kind of pointless to visit. However, this might have been to show that there were some of these useless towns in existence. Either way, they have included more than just plot-specific places in the games at various times.
These all had something related to them. A couple places had djinn. Some were part of sidequests. I don't think any of them didn't have any use.
The settlement near Magma Rock had nothing besides some pretty useless Stardust and a Lucky Medal. Well it also had some people who said Magma Balls are found in Magma Rock, but I only found the place after doing Magma Rock, so that seemed kind of useless. I went back in hard mode before Magma Rock to see if they'd tell me its location, but no. So that place seems pretty useless overall.