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The stuff kids read in school...

Started by Thunder-squall, 03, May, 2014, 03:22:34 PM

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Thunder-squall

... were written by all sorts of people who did all sorts of things.  I now find it odd telling kids 'not to do drugs,' when so many of the great artists used them.  I mean, following the evidence, what advice would you give a kid who aspires to be a writer?

I'm waiting for the day when 'playing lots of games' or 'watching lots of TV' is the new mind altering substance for creative sorts.  I'll confess that I don't use substances (much), for example, and attribute my creativity to the breadth of stuff I've experienced, rather than to substance use.

But I think that no matter what artists use to boost their experiences, I think they'll always have a negative stigma, because they'll always be pushing the boundaries of the ordinary.  Once they stop pushing the boundaries, artists will simply move to something else.

So this raises the question of how much of school education should be "on the edge," and how much of it should be "safe."  Unlike some other nations, the US education system isn't so strong at having kids memorize instructions, but excels at having kids think for themselves.  Assuming that, I guess kids should learn the safer stuff when they're pre teens, and then be exposed to the more experimental stuff when they're teens.

I guess I'm just talking about the liberal arts subject, rather than the 'STEM' stuff.

Majora

Are you implying drug use is a necessary requirement for one who wishes to become a 'great artist'

Thunder-squall

Quote from: Majora on 04, May, 2014, 02:10:07 PM
Are you implying drug use is a necessary requirement for one who wishes to become a 'great artist'


I am bluntly saying that it's an obvious conclusion to draw, and people do regularly draw it.

I think there are alternatives, as discussed above.

Majora

Very aware, it's an easily-made assumption, however incorrect it is.
Drug use has very little relevance when it comes to an individual's creative output. Can say firsthand, especially in the music industry, that it's simply the nature of the business; you are constantly surrounded by a generally-similar group of people who think and behave in certain ways.
For more sensitive individuals, that can be a difficult temptation to avoid, acceptance being a strong motivator in any social setting.

Drug use does nothing to improve or 'expand' an individual's creative abilities, if anything, it dilutes creativity. It's that individual's more or less already-present God-given skill set that allows one to achieve in a creative setting.

It's a poor philosophy to have, if you honestly believe drug use is a constant factor in creative success. Has more of a place in pot circles than it does a discussion in education reform, especially in this day and age. It isn't exactly 1971 anymore

Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas

#4
Let me guess...
...so many artists have been criminals?
...so many artists have died from overdose?

If drugs did have any effect on what you may say, what about the trade-offs? Wouldn't they be reason "not to do drugs?" (You could consider things like addiction and costly.) If it's about smokes, I'd say it's rude/disrespectful when you know non-smokers are around/near. Mainly because of the utterly disgusting smell that messes up your nose and eyes. (I think eyes? Well, from the fireplace, anyway.)

And then you have people with mental problems like Einstein who became well-known in history. (I'm going to take a guess and say that drugs played a part in his death.)
Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...

Sometimes I like to compare apples to oranges. (Figuratively) ... They are both fruits, but which one would you eat more? (If taken literally, I'd probably choose apples.)
Maybe it is over-analyzing, but it doesn't mean the information is useless.


The only GS Discord servers with significance are:
Golden Sun Hacking Community
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/r/Golden Sun
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Can you believe how small the Golden Sun Community is?

2+2=5 Don't believe me? Those are rounded decimal numbers. Take that, flat earth theorists! :)

Majora

I know, has no relevance to what the individual is trying to achieve at all.
Imagine, for example, instead of making a substantial suggestion to an aspiring musician who would like to emulate the recording procedures a music group they enjoy employed when recording one of their favorite songs, (use this particular mixing console, use these reverb units, record vocals using this specific room setup, and so on) simply recommend some drugs of choice, and magically, the song will come together of its own accord.

Essentially encouraging someone to emulate some random individual's clandestine down-time activities as opposed to their working methods.
There really isn't even a slight connection between drug use and the quality of an individual's output. Can say from previous experience that it only hinders the process to have someone clowning around a working studio while under the influence. The entire act just slows the process down.
Once had a normally active and hard-working member of an unmentionable group trip over a wire providing power to a computer being used for sequencing at the time during a particularly long session, wasn't very pleased with that. Had to extract a vocalist from a stupor in a sketchy candle-laden backroom to record. Just makes a normally enjoyable process unnecessarily unpleasant.

Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas

I'd view this drugs makes people better artist theory as nothing more than a stereotype.

Quote
Cultural Dictionary

stereotype definition

A too-simple and therefore distorted image of a group, such as "Football players are stupid" or "The English are cold and unfriendly people."

stereotype definition

A generalization, usually exaggerated or oversimplified and often offensive, that is used to describe or distinguish a group.

---
I'd rather compare being a better artist to the type of people you hang around with before comparing it to drugs. (Or something like that.)
Sometimes all it takes is one person to ruin someone's day, so...
Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...

Sometimes I like to compare apples to oranges. (Figuratively) ... They are both fruits, but which one would you eat more? (If taken literally, I'd probably choose apples.)
Maybe it is over-analyzing, but it doesn't mean the information is useless.


The only GS Discord servers with significance are:
Golden Sun Hacking Community
GS Speedrunning
/r/Golden Sun
GS United Nations
Temple of Kraden

Can you believe how small the Golden Sun Community is?

2+2=5 Don't believe me? Those are rounded decimal numbers. Take that, flat earth theorists! :)

Wolf

Quote from: Thunder-squall on 03, May, 2014, 03:22:34 PM
... were written by all sorts of people who did all sorts of things.  I now find it odd telling kids 'not to do drugs,' when so many of the great artists used them.  I mean, following the evidence, what advice would you give a kid who aspires to be a writer?

Drugs can have very nasty side effects.  Using them earlier can increase the risk of problems occurring.  On top of that, kids have a lot more growing to do.  Damaging an organ in an early stage has obvious repercussions compared to damaging one that is almost or completely developed.

Health risk aside, people are capable of creating art, (and etc.), without the use of drugs.

charon the ferryman

#8
Hey, I know people who do hard drugs for "creativity" and it's not worth it. It doesn't do anything to boost their creativity and either makes them trip the @#$% out or get really mellow - and in some cases it's an addictive habit that can overwhelm people. Hell, I smoked pot for some time and I didn't really get more "creative" while under the drug. Most of the people who claim this are originally very uncreative or unintelligent people, who, upon using the drug, notice more things than usual. Even when you're high you can notice it in other people and it's so @#$%&*! annoying and dreadfully wrong that you want to punch them in the face.

In reality when you're under the effects of a drug, especially hallucinogenics, you interpret the world in a different way than you normally do when you're sober. When you're high, the feeling and noise of things are more pleasurable and noticeable than before, and for whatever reason your brain hyperfocuses on stuff. It's not "creativity". I should pull up some drawings I drew while stoned out of my mind as in comparison to not to make this more clear.

For reference, here's how I normally draw:

[spoiler=digital][/spoiler]

and this is how I drew while really incredibly stoned:

[spoiler=digital][/spoiler]

I dunno about you but the first thing I notice is that I use very obtuse colour choices (because it's more stimulating to the eyes) but also that it kind of looks like crap. There's no level of detail, there's no real variation in the brush strokes, and it's kind of hard to tell what the hell it's really supposed to be.

Another issue with drawing in this state is that you can't really concentrate on something long enough to actually complete it in a way that's appropriate. Sometimes people make stark realizations that actually help out in a sobered state, but usually this is not the case, and especially if you're under a heavier influence.

tl;dr drugs don't make you more creative and anyone who claims that is probably as creative as a potato. I have nothing against people who use drugs, because there's a lot of people who can use the lower stuff responsibly, and even some of the more serious stuff. If you're unable to manage your life while you take a drug, then you need to stop. I think that people should also not be incriminated for taking a drug and rather be treated as people who suffer from an illness if they are addicted because that's exactly what they are psychologically - they suffer from addiction which is a well chronicled psychological illness - and forcing people to go cold turkey or punish them with years in prison is not justifiable for someone who is clearly suffering from an addiction. And yes, I've held this opinion even before I tried anything.

P.S. If anyone thinks I'm some sort of hard-core stoner, I only smoke a small amount across about 1-2 weeks every few months. That @#$% is expensive and makes you waste a lot of time. It's also not as addictive as you would think. I also smoke it not just for the "highs" but also because it helps me manage my weight, which used to make me very sickly when I was younger, as well as anxiety and insomnia. I'm considering going medicinal sometime, but not anytime soon.

And please, if you're reading this, don't think this is a "you should smoke pot!!1" PSA. You should only do what you think is comfortable for you. If that includes smoking dope, then that's fine. But if you don't feel comfortable with it, that's fine too. I do my hardest to distance myself from the "toker community" because a lot of people try to pressure other people into doing drugs. It's not right. Do what you think is right for yourself.