[RELEASE] Golden Sun: The Balance Age

[VardenSalad]

Thank you very much. I was glossing over the link in the class section and reading about how you used some of Rolina's work. The document is incredible useful, and it's very apparent how the extra 2 djinn per adept allows for a lot of flexibility in class changes in TLA compared to TBS. I'm eager to start my playthrough of the rebalanced TLA after I finish the first one.

Ivan's Fateweaver class tree was throwing me off, since the move from the Elementalist(3 3 5 ), which grants access to Ice, Volcano, and Whirlwind, to Divine Mage (3 4 5 ), which gives Punishment, Hail, and buffing Psynergy. Because I hadn't hit 29 yet, I had figured Punishment was simply an upgraded Plasma like Thunderclap, not a single target Jupiter spell.

[Caledor]

Well most of the time there isn't very much room for comparison since I wanted the classes to have different roles. For example with the standard mages' classes, the Dark Shaman and the Warlock share the ability to attack with 3 elements but the first has more healing options + Break, while the second has ward + ply and slightly more offensive power. The Pure Mage was the best caster in the original game period, due to access to the strongest offensive spells, the strongest heal + ward + revive. Now it struggles to be the game's best healer (Jenna's Guardian could be a challenger for that spot) and it complements the Fateweaver, which has the second best offense in the game (first is the Necromage's Dullahan) and the best supporting suite with all the buffs + ply + break. Well, at least I like to always have both with me in my class setups. ;)

[VardenSalad]

Ok, I beat Deadbeard. Yeah, I felt the buffs he got. Hard. Also, @#$% Break.

As I continue to play around with the Djinn and checking the Class doc, I can really see how diversified the classes and the trade-offs that have to be made. For the first time playing Golden Sun, I didn't feel like I had enough Djinn, and I like that.

I've probably beaten Golden Sun and The Lost Age 5 times each, the most recent probably 2 years or so again. I will admit that I never switched classes in those runthroughs, mostly because I didn't need to and because I felt that keeping everyone mono-elemental was kinda canon-ish. I never explored the game mechanics because there was no need. Don't get me wrong, I beat Dullahan, grinded for items, abused the RNG, all that. But this patch really made me work for stats. So, in my opinion, I think that the patch was a good change to the game.

One thing that is disappointing, though, is the level I'm at now that I'm at the latest endgame, which is 29. I can see that there's so much Psynergy locked behind levels that I didn't get access to, even second Judgement :/ Have you ever considered attempting to rebalance the game around an overhauled EXP system that effectively gives you more levels (and access to more Psynergy) but keeps the difficulty stable? I also ask this because this patch was reasonably hard from the start; I'm positive that, if I were to give this patched game to someone who had never played Golden Sun, they would fail more often than necessary trying to learn the game mechanics. I guess I'm asking for the same difficulty curve, but shifted a bit towards the early-middle of the game, instead of the early levels.

It's not my patch, but that's my feedback. I had fun playing this and it made me think, which is a success in my book.

[Caledor]

First and foremost, thank you for playing through the first half of the game and I'm really glad you enjoyed this.
About the levels, I'm sorry, but they'll stay like that, for many reasons. Among that there is the facts that Golden Sun doesn't END with the first game, but continues, so I see no issues with beating deadbeard at 30, cause you're not at the endgame, you're not even at the half of it. Hope what i'm saying makes sense to you as well. Lol, I'll never forget my reaction when I boarded on the Lemurian ship in lalivero for the first time, around level 30 with only half of the lighthouses cleared... Let's just say I wasn't expecting that "To be Continued..." AT ALL (I crawled the internet for MONTHS looking for the sequel, but i was around 12 at that time so I wasn't really good at it). Another one is that you're supposed to carry over your stats to TLA, which means i'll have to completely redo that one as well. IMHO, this isn't really worth the huge efforts it would require.
About the difficulty, I can't say you're wrong. If you think about it, it was "balanced" by me, and I know quite a lot of the game mechanics so newbies are almost bound to get burned at the start. I found myself thinking that just missing a few djinn here and there might put you in A LOT of danger against some bosses (try beating Saturos without Granite and Breeze at level 11...). Seeing your feedback, I MIGHT try to make the early game a bit easier, but I'm not really sure about it.
About the end of GS, how did it feel? Did you try to find everything (Kikuichimonji, Aura Gloves, Zodiac Wand, Spiked Armor) or you were satisfied with the items you had (note that Aura Gloves are nowhere near the useless item they were)? Also, any feedback on the nerf/buff the other endgame items received or the class setup you used?

Also, I'm eagerly waiting for your thought about the second half of the game as well.

[VardenSalad]

Thanks for responding so quickly.

To be honest, I never expected a game rebalanced around levels due to the second game and The Reunion. Just vocalizing disappointment mostly stemming from approaching the end of the game.

About the difficulty, I looks like I express my concerns and you felt the same way. I know that I am biased myself having knowledge of the game mechanics and may be underestimating the inquisitiveness and ingenuity of brand new players. I'd have to find someone who has never played and ask for feedback. But I know your audience isn't huge, so I don't know if it's worth the time. Just my thoughts.

As for items, let's see. I know that I have everything from every CHEST. Asura's Armor, Princess Robe, Gaia Blade, Demon's Axe, all that. I have not, but I will definitely go back and try to find all the rare drop items, but after I've beaten the final boss at my current level. I guess I'll save state right before the last point of no return, beat S,M, and the dragon, then run around. I expect I should be able to beat them having beat Deadbeard, but I really don't know. I'll have to work on my RNG manipulation again or just give the "speed-up" button a workout. Even if I don't need the stats, I just want to see how the items got changed.

I will say that I found it very, very difficult in this playthrough to find reason to use summons, although this may be a side effect of running through the game at roughly the same pace as Vanilla. Against Deadbeard, for example, I had Isaac as Samurai (3 /4 /5 ), Garet as Leader(3 /4 /5 ), Ivan as Divine Mage (3 /4 /5 ), and Mia as White Mage (3 /4 /5 ). There was no way at all that I was able to take off Djinn in order to summon without toeing the failure line extremely hard. Deadbeard casting Ward often made summons just not worth it, although that is definitely a function of me using tri-elemental classes. But I'm positive I would have died inside of a turn without those high class stat multipliers. But I know summons are most effective with a high elemental power level, which leans towards mono-elemental classes, but lack class stat multipliers.

I'll definitely do another big post after I collect everything and beat S&M.

I do DEFINITELY want to say that I hate you for the Devil's Crown. That thing is SO GOOD stat-wise, but it's cursed. It's not worth it to stick it on Mia because she can't use another of the other endgame cursed equipment, but, wow, is it tempting. It's definitely going to end up on Garet.

[Caledor]

I will say that I found it very, very difficult in this playthrough to find reason to use summons, [...] There was no way at all that I was able to take off Djinn in order to summon without toeing the failure line extremely hard [...] although that is definitely a function of me using tri-elemental classes.

Yup, it's intended. You can probably tell on the first glance at the doc that mono elemental are the weakest, followed by item then by dual and so on. The better psynergy sets and higher stat you gain are supposed to be compensated by the higher penalty suffered when using djinn (which are more useful, especially the reviving and damaging ones).

I do DEFINITELY want to say that I hate you for the Devil's Crown. That thing is SO GOOD stat-wise, but it's cursed. It's not worth it to stick it on Mia because she can't use another of the other endgame cursed equipment, but, wow, is it tempting. It's definitely going to end up on Garet.

And this one is also quite the big compliment cause it is completely intended. :P
If you see the first post, you'll find that the luck penalty on the ring was introduced not only to compensate the new boosts, but also to discourage the use of those "dark" items by "righteous" classes like holy knight, paladin and healers, which are generally the ones with high luck.

[VardenSalad]

Oh, I know the more djinn-complex classes have the higher base stats, I guess I was trying to get across that I'm positive that will lesser classes, I would have gotten toasted. Like, dual-elemental classes would have gotten dunked against Deadbeard. I like that it was challenging, but without grinding for stats, there was no other way to compete.

[Rolina]

Zodiac Wand is originally +102 attack power, right?  And it's got a +8 Max PP boost?  Hmm...

What ratio are you using for the weapon variability you use?

[VardenSalad]

                                                                                                                 ENDGAME-ish RNG ITEM POST

I assume that the Prophet's Hat (+30 DEF / Curse active) didn't change? Well, I went back and got one. I see it did not change :( Not really sure it should change, or what it would change to, but it is what it is.

Aura Gloves (+12 ATK / +36 DEF / Crit Increase) [As an added note, would it be possible to remove the "may break if used in battle" text?] An Attack boost, Unleash chance increase, and still the second highest shield/glove Def? Thank you very much, I see you're trying to get me to give Garet the Mirror Shield so Issac has the Attack Boost and Unleash increase. Well, it worked. (How am I supposed to pick between the Demon Axe and Muramasa for Garet? Why are choices in my Golden Sun?) 

Gigant Axe (+122 ATK / -7 DEF) Definitely would have been good had I found it when I originally went through Venus Lighthouse Exit and onto Lalivero. As it is, probably one of the best non-cursed weapons. Mars Unleash too.

Zodiac Wand (+106 ATK / +15 PWR / +8 MaxPP) [Found it on the first try, too. Must be born under a good sign.] The MaxPP +8 is level with the Crystal Rod (+94 ATK / +10 PWR / +8 MaxPP), but the Attack has been buffed ahead of the Swift Sword to +106. The  +15  Bonus and additional ATK, however, makes it obvious who the owner of this staff will be. Still a toss-up between this, the Swift Sword, and (I'm going to assume since I haven't found it yet) the Kikuichimonji if you plan on making Ivan attack more often, but the power boost is solid for spells.

Spiked Armor (+10 ATK / +40 DEF / Crit Increase) Not very lucky right now. I mean, in Venus Lighthouse proper there's, like, 5 different rare drops and it took me a while to get this one. Hard toss-up between Spiked Armor and Asura's Armor. Considering I've got Mia casting Wish every turn, the HP regen from Asura's really goes out the window. But I'll be a bit vain here; I like how Asura's Armor looks, and while the Spiked Armor is now stronger than Asura's in every way but defense (as is befitting a rare drop item, in my opinion) I will stick with Asura's Armor.

Feathered Robe (+38 DEF / +15 PWR / +30 RES / +30 AGI) I really, really dislike the position I'm placed in now. The Robe offers only 4 less defense than the Storm Gear, which Ivan is currently wearing. However, the prospect of an additional 15 Power, 15 more Defense, and a huge amount of agility make it a tough sell against +15  resist and slightly more defense. Storm Gear has the same defense as Asura's Armor. Maybe Isaac?

Stone of @#$%&*! Sages on Mt. Aleph in Hell, @#$% getting the Kikuichimonji (+122 ATK / +10 AGI) Took me a TON of time, even lovingly murdering every single Fenrir with a Mars Djinn. A really nice sword to have, but currently looks like it pales compared to the Zodiac Wand. The unleash is boss and has a chance to ignore half the enemy's defense, but I don't know if it's worth giving up the +MaxPP and  Power from the Zodiac Wand. I'm probably going to stick with the wand, because A. I don't really know what +MaxPP is worth in terms of power to spells, but I know more is always better and B. I'm pretty sure I won't be attacking with Ivan too much in the final battle. Only the Blessed Mace left. Hope I haven't completely depopulated Venus Lighthouse of monsters...

Blessed Mace (+126 ATK / +8 HP Regen / Use to heal 200 HP) HAS NO UNLEASH. After running around Venus Lighthouse for hours looking for Thunder Lizards to end for the Mace, I got one. And let me tell you, it was definitely not worth it. In the time it took me to find this worthless item, I'd collected 3 Kikuichimonjis, 3 Zodiac Wands, and 2 Feathered Robes. Really high ATK for Mia, but I personally, am going to stick with the Crystal Rod and its Power for better Wishes.

At the end of my RNG Items Escapade, my team is now level 38 (up from 29 at Deadbeard). I now have 310K coins (up from 95K at Deadbeard). 10 hours of game time (about 6 hours real-time, thank you Speed Up button on VBA-M). Some really, really strong items here, but I'm now afraid that my team is way too strong for the last battle (I have no knowledge of S&M's tactics.) I guess we'll see. 

[Rolina]

Think you can post the stats?  I'm nearing mid-game, and would like to compare how weapons are now to how they are then.  Will help me get a betting feel for how they compare to each other, IMO.

[Caledor]

Zodiac Wand is originally +102 attack power, right?  And it's got a +8 Max PP boost?  Hmm...

What ratio are you using for the weapon variability you use?

... and +15 to JPower. About the ratio, those that also increase power increase slightly less PP, but i didn't use a strict formula.
About the items i won't make a chart like the ones for classes and djinn cause it's way easier just loading the rom in the editor

[VardenSalad]

@Rolina

Yeah, no problem. I think I may have left the Wicked Mace in Crossbone Isle :( After I get the Blessed Mace and Wicked Mace, I'll make several big endgame weapon and equipment posts.

It'll be worth it just to give and get feedback as to why certain setups were chosen.

[Rolina]

Zodiac Wand is originally +102 attack power, right?  And it's got a +8 Max PP boost?  Hmm...

What ratio are you using for the weapon variability you use?

... and +15 to JPower. About the ratio, those that also increase power increase slightly less PP, but i didn't use a strict formula.
About the items i won't make a chart like the ones for classes and djinn cause it's way easier just loading the rom in the editor

Eh, until I finish it, that feels like cheating. :P

So you winged it, eh?  I get ya.  I was hoping you had a formula or something so I could compare it to the one I use currently.  I suppose once I finish the game I'll plug them into an XLS and follow the trendline then.

[VardenSalad]

Alright, Saturos and Menardi are no more and I depart Lalivero on a Lemurian ship. The beacon has been lit, but Isaac and co. press on to find Jenna, Felix, Kraden, and Sheba.

I used my RNG item hunting save file for this, with characters at level 38, and the final battle was involved, but fairly so. My characters were not in danger of dying, considering that having a Samurai, Leader, Divine Mage, and White Mage allows for 2 Resists, a Protect, and a Wish Well immediately after either S&M or Fusion Dragon uses Break. I find this fair; I had a party that spent the time looking for the best gear in the game, collected every Djinn, beat the game's superboss, and put my characters in (arguably) the best classes available for the game. The journey to that point was far more involved than in previous playthroughs, so I definitely enjoyed my experience.

Glowing praise for:

The tweaked class system. It was worth the playtime just to see all the new and renamed classes. I'm pretty sure that was a lot of Rolina's work and since I can't really tell when one person's modifications stopped and another person's started, I'm going to give praise to both. I haven't taken the time to check each instance where the new system differentiated from vanilla, but I enjoyed the changes.

Tweaked items in general were great to behold. Giving the weapon classes unique stat alterations (Axes = Big ATK, but actually LOWER DEF means that Garet is able to shoulder the burden easier than Isaac) was such a nice change. This is one of the changes I am going to enjoy seeing in The Lost Age because of the blacksmith system, so there'll be a ton of new items and weapons to seek out.

A few complaints:

It doesn't look and feel like you've scaled +MaxPP well enough in items over the course of the game, especially some of the endgame caster weapons, and doubly when compared to the PP-restoring items Mia had. I think my set-up for Mia endgame had her recovering 12PP per turn with the Princess Robe and the Mythril Circlet, which is half a Wish Well per turn, but she still gets +8 MaxPP from the Cyr Rod. Ivan (caster to the end) doesn't get enough of a damage boost coming from his own set-up, with only the Zodiac Wand (an RNG endgame item) providing +MaxPP at +8. Heck, the Ceres' Helm and Thunder Crown both provide almost DOUBLE the +MaxPP at +15. Now there may be an absolute ton of +MaxPP items for casters to take advantage of in The Lost Age, but Ivan definitely got the screwed in terms of relative utility gained at the end of The Broken Seal.

Rings still feel extraneous, sans the new Angel's Ring (whose changes I very much liked.). I've never used one in battle. I don't know if you'd want to overhaul them, but providing them with wildly varying stat increases could be a way to make people seek them out. If you wanted to get really crazy, make them provide 1.1x a particular stat. While that example is extreme, I think rings got overlooked as items that could be important.

Blessed Mace. To be honest, you should just leave it as is as an endgame black humour joke to remind people that just because it's shiny and makes some numbers go up, doesn't mean that it's actually better. A "grass is always greener" kinda thing. But, man, was that weapon disappointing.  


I'm looking forward to playing the second game and seeing the changes that have taken place, specifically in classes and psynergy available.

[Caledor]

The tweaked class system. It was worth the playtime just to see all the new and renamed classes. I'm pretty sure that was a lot of Rolina's work and since I can't really tell when one person's modifications stopped and another person's started, I'm going to give praise to both. I haven't taken the time to check each instance where the new system differentiated from vanilla, but I enjoyed the changes.

The classes Rolina made that i literally copy-pasted (with very minor tweaks from me) are in TLA and are the base classes of Felix and Sheba. I did everything else on my own. All i can say is that the best is yet to come, 'cause originally all this was done just to give Jenna and Piers the classes they deserve.

It doesn't look and feel like you've scaled +MaxPP well enough in items over the course of the game, especially some of the endgame caster weapons, and doubly when compared to the PP-restoring items Mia had. I think my set-up for Mia endgame had her recovering 12PP per turn with the Princess Robe and the Mythril Circlet, which is half a Wish Well per turn, but she still gets +8 MaxPP from the Cyr Rod. Ivan (caster to the end) doesn't get enough of a damage boost coming from his own set-up, with only the Zodiac Wand (an RNG endgame item) providing +MaxPP at +8. Heck, the Ceres' Helm and Thunder Crown both provide almost DOUBLE the +MaxPP at +15. Now there may be an absolute ton of +MaxPP items for casters to take advantage of in The Lost Age, but Ivan definitely got the screwed in terms of relative utility gained at the end of The Broken Seal.

Yup, there was literally no space to balance that in the first game. The PP increase/regen is supposed to come mainly from headgears (circlets) and secondarily from robes (mostly additional regen). The PP increase from the staves is VERY minor and it's not supposed to balance things out. Balance wise, i think the extra jupiter power ivan has (feathered robe + zodiac wand means +20 JPower compared to Mia's MePower) should even out with her PP regen.

Rings still feel extraneous, sans the new Angel's Ring (whose changes I very much liked.). I've never used one in battle. I don't know if you'd want to overhaul them, but providing them with wildly varying stat increases could be a way to make people seek them out. If you wanted to get really crazy, make them provide 1.1x a particular stat. While that example is extreme, I think rings got overlooked as items that could be important

Well there's the war ring that increases attack, the wind ring for agility, the adept ring replenishes PP, the healing ring recovers HP, the unicorn ring and the fairy ring are multi-target and both effects are unique in both games... i don't know what else I could've done with them... there isn't a single ring that wasn't tweaked.
I also thought about x1.1 multipliers many times in the past but i always ended up scrapping the idea, in fact i removed them wherever i could (turtle boots, even shirt etc).

Blessed Mace. To be honest, you should just leave it as is as an endgame black humour joke to remind people that just because it's shiny and makes some numbers go up, doesn't mean that it's actually better. A "grass is always greener" kinda thing. But, man, was that weapon disappointing. 

Suggestions? IMHO before was Mia's best weapon but now it's clearly overshadowed by the Crystal Rod so... The first thing that comes to mind is to add a Luck boost to it, but i want to hear your opinion as well.

Anyway, thanks for posting all this. It was very interesting and useful.

[VardenSalad]

First things first, to whoever gave Felix the class of Rogue and then gave me Growth, I thank you in many ways. [Story time] When I was a lot younger, I read the Circle of Magic series of books by Tamora Price. One of the characters in this series is a former street thief who happens to have an affinity for plant-magic. Now, I know that Felix is neither a young teenage boy nor an inherently bad person, but the idea of a stand-offish outcast who has a green thumb is burned so strong in my head thank I wanted to thank someone for reminding me of the archetype.

I will take another hard look again at rings in TBS.



Blessed Mace. Hmm. I don't know exactly how much editing of individual items you can do but we'll take a shot in the dark.

Something like this?:

Blessed Mace [PURE ELEMENTAL WEAPON ] +118 ATK  +3 LCK  +10 RES
UNLEASH: Aqua Regia +55 extra damage  side effect of Venom (is it even possible to stick an unleash and animation on a weapon? Perhaps Toadonpa's Sticky Poison?)

I think this may be too strong, but I know it opens up the tantalizing prospect of ignoring the Angel's Robe for the Storm Gear on Mia. Trading utility for Ele. Def only works if it's not just straight better and there's no real tradeoff.

With this you could buff the Crystal Rod's Attack to +98-100 and +MaxPP to +10 (with the Zodiac Wand as well). 10 just feels like such a round number that it'll definitely let you know it's a "last item down a specific path" (in this case, the Mercury and Jupiter caster staves) and I don't think the slight buff is going to throw balance out of whack.

(Ignore the last paragraph if you've already run the numbers and really like where the Crystal Rod and Zodiac Wand are right now. Not need to fix what isn't broken.)

[Caledor]

First things first, to whoever gave Felix the class of Rogue and then gave me Growth, I thank you in many ways. [Story time] When I was a lot younger, I read the Circle of Magic series of books by Tamora Price. One of the characters in this series is a former street thief who happens to have an affinity for plant-magic. Now, I know that Felix is neither a young teenage boy nor an inherently bad person, but the idea of a stand-offish outcast who has a green thumb is burned so strong in my head thank I wanted to thank someone for reminding me of the archetype.

That would be Rolina. I really liked her idea of differentiating characters of the same element in the casting department - Felix is the Plant to Isaac's Earth and Sheba is the Wind to Ivan's Lightning - and that's how i ended up making Jenna the Fire to Garet's Blast and Piers the Water to Mia's Ice as well. This is the post i took inspiration from.

Blessed Mace [PURE ELEMENTAL WEAPON ] +118 ATK  +3 LCK  +10 RES
UNLEASH: Aqua Regia +55 extra damage  side effect of Venom (is it even possible to stick an unleash and animation on a weapon? Perhaps Toadonpa's Sticky Poison?)

Well with the Righteous Mace it would make both endgame maces of the same element so... And + Res on top of  +Luck it's impossible cause i've got only 4 slots for bonuses. I guess i'll stick to my initial idea and just add +5 Luck to it. About the animation, I could probably do it (the Caladbolg basically unleashes Poseidon's Watery Grave).

And thanks for reporting the now useless message on the aura gloves, it's fixed for v1.21.

[VardenSalad]

Damn, I didn't realize there were such limitations for weapons. My Blessed Mace was a total shot in the dark. I completely forgot about the Righteous Mace; you're correct.

Caladbolg? Guess I've got a game to play.

[Caledor]

Read the first post to know what the caladbolg is. Oh and 1.21 is out

[VardenSalad]

I was playing on 1.18, not 1.20 ._. I apologize about the ring comments.