Utilities Of Golden Sun!

[Zach]

Lucky for you, I already made a topic (back in May) about the enemy only moves. So I'm just going to copy and paste my info.

Well, thanks to Role's infinite curiosity, curiosity has been born in me, so I just decided to make a thread about some psynergies (i.e "Ally Search") with the same effects as their name depicts and how some differ when used by your allies. Some of you may or may not find this thread useful.

500 Threaten - When an enemy uses it, they switch between differents movesets IF they have multiple movesets. When an ally uses it, nothing happens and you waste a turn

503 Speed Surge - When an enemy uses it, it makes itself divide and a new enemy (the same one) will appear. When an ally uses it on an enemy, it makes a harmless vermin (whoses name is just a space) appear. However, if you use it enough, then the dead enemy that you used it on will appear (even still, they're harmless).

504 Ally Search - Same effects as Speed Surge, however, instead of dividing, the enemy looks for an ally and is not necessarily the same.

508 Battle Cry (Note: The ally part has been used on multiple enemies, but I've only had a Wild Wolf use a Battle Cry, so this section will probably and most likely be edited later) - When used by an enemy (in this case a Wild Wolf), it makes the same enemy appear. When an ally uses it, it makes the enemy that it was used it, appear

667 Clarion Cry - Same effects of Mystic Call

708 Regen Dance - Despite who's using it, a dead enemy is revived (if an enemy was killed, otherwise it will have no effect), even if you cast it on yourself.

725 Mystic Call (Note: This move has already been covered, but is still being posted for clarity) - Despite who's using it, a Sea Fighter appear

730 - Element Swap - Same effects as Threaten

733 - Same effects as Threaten and Element Swap

Note: This is incomplete and will be edited gradually.

Moves that needs to be tested
----------------------------------
499 Contain
501 Tremble (I think this has been tested before)
505 Sidestep

Crucible is what Vaulkar uses to use your summons against you.

[Zach]

Sorry for the double post, but here is the list of healing psynergies.

Player Only (Can the wish series and revive be used by anyone? My memory is fuzzy atm)

Aura
Healing Aura
Cooling Aura
Wish
Wish Well
Pure Wish
Cure Poison
Restore
Revive
Aurora Field (Iris uses this when she is summoned)

Enemy Only

Earnest Ply (same as Pure Ply, but is for enemies only apparently)
Psy Boost

Useable by anyone

Cure
Cure Well
Potent Cure
Ply
Ply Well
Pure Ply

I noticed that wind doesn't have a healing move. Weird.

As for uses, I can make your job easier

Lash - Lift and move very light objects (i.e ropes)
Pound - Drive objects into the ground
Tremor - Shake objects left and right
Scoop - Dig in soft ground
Cyclone - Conjure winds to scatter weeds
Parch - Evaporate standing water (not all waters sadly)
Sand - Melt into sand
Move - Move an object on the ground
Mind Read - Read someone's mind
Force - Strike a distant object
Lift - Lift an object vertically
Reveal - Perceive hidden truths
Halt - Stop a moving object (fun to use on people ^^)
Cloak - Hide away in shadows
Carry - Lift and move light objects (Move and Lift combined)
Catch - Grab light objects from afar
Retreat - Return to the dungeon's entrance (or to the last door entrance to a major part of that dungeon)
Avoid - Encounter fewer monsters
Burst - Break cracked objects
Grind - Pulverize large objects
Hover - Hover in the air
Blaze - Manipulate flames
Ma???? (Magnet/Magic Circle) - ??? (Seems like it's a psynergy circle)
Teleport - Teleport at will
A?? (Arrow) - ??? (People often conclude that it was probably used for a mini-game, or to light fires from afar, until they came up with blaze and scraped this idea)

For the enemy only moves, please refer to my previous post as it would be pointless to post that again

Items.

Lucky Pepper - Boost Luck
Mint - Boosts Agility
Hard Nut - Boosts Defense
Apple - Boosts Attack
Cookie - Boosts Maximum PP
Power Bread - Boosts Maximum HP

For the Attack and Utility list, you forgot about Gale, but I guess you left that off since it's the same as whirlwind

Both attack and utility.

Douse - Attack with a surge of water
Frost - Attack with frigid blasts
Whirlwind - Attack with a swirling tornado
Gale (if you choose to include this one) - Attack with wind's might
Growth - Attack with wild plants

This post has been edited by zach on Jun 25 2009, 12:23 AM

[Salanewt]

Okay, here is a list of all of the utilities that I know of. I will start posting their uses soon, but I would appreciate some help for this part.

Player can use.

Lash
Pound
Tremor
Scoop
Cyclone
Parch
Sand
Move
Mind Read
Force
Lift
Reveal
Halt
Cloak
Carry
Catch
Retreat
Avoid
Burst
Grind
Hover
Blaze
Ma???? (Magnet/Magic Circle)
Teleport
A?? (Arrow)



Enemy only.

Pressure
Element Swap
Mystic Call
Guard Aura (will not be only enemy in my hack)
Clarion Cry
Battle Cry
Stand Ready
Total Defense
Sidestep (does this move even do anything? I will test it shortly)
Ally Search
Speed Surge
Fortify
Tremble
Threaten
Contain

Useable by anyone.

Defend
Flee (surprisingly enough)

Items.

Lucky Pepper
Mint
Hard Nut
Apple
Cookie
Power Bread

Both attack and utility.

Douse
Frost
Whirlwind
Growth
Gale

On this list would include all healing psynergies that can be used outside of battle.
I hope that this list is useful, and I will be making other lists if they are wanted.

I am still surprised that these items were included as utilities...
Please feel free to add any if I have missed them.

The only descriptions that are really needed right now are the enemy only utilities, and what they do. However, these are included in the editor, so it is for completion's sake that they go on this list.

Have a nice day.


This post has been edited by Salanewt on Jul 6 2009, 08:39 PM

[Salanewt]

Thank you very much. I actually did forget about Gale, since I do not often use it when I play. I will slightly alter my list then.

Have a nice day.
 

[Zach]

Your welcome

[Aile~♥]

Isn't Total Defense that move that Rats use that reduces damage taken to 10 or 20%? Also, what does Stand Ready do?

[Salanewt]

I do not know. This is why I am going to try it out... But not for a little while longer. Oh yeah, within 30 minutes to 1 hour, I managed to get my team up from the low 20s to the mid 70s... Of course, I changed the exp gain for killing Vermin and Wild Mushrooms.

Have a nice day.
 

[Zach]

Isn't Total Defense that move that Rats use that reduces damage taken to 10 or 20%? Also, what does Stand Ready do?

I didn't put Stand Ready nor Total Defense up? My bad.

Total Defense - Decreases damage by 90%. THe enemy uses this at the beginning of the turn, however, you will not know if it's been used until you attack that enemy.

Stand Ready - I THINK that it has the same effects as Total Defense, but when I remember what it does I will edit this post

[Salanewt]

Thank you for all of these descriptions. This thread will be much more helpful to people with them.

Have a nice day.
 

[Zach]

Thank you for all of these descriptions. This thread will be much more helpful to people with them.

Have a nice day.

My pleasure Salanewt. It would be nice if this was pinned since it's technically a reference guide

[Salanewt]

True enough. It would be nice. That way, it would be easier to find as well, considering the type of guide that this is.

Have a nice day.
 

[Salanewt]

Fire only received healing moves in the second game... Also, I did notice that wind does not have any healing moves, but I think the programmers did this because Jupiter has status ailment moves like Sleep and Bind.

Have a nice day.
 

[Aile~♥]

That's why I think Role's idea of order of healing strength is a little bit off:

In terms of healing psynergy: Water>Earth>Wind>Fire

Really it's: Water>Fire>Earth>Wind. Maybe wind should get healing too?

[Salanewt]

It would make sense, yes. However, I did notice that there is a little bit of healing for Jupiter, but it is in the form of Djinni...

Anyway, if it had healing psynergies, then it would be arguably the best element in the game (after all, it would have strong attacks, status ailments, and healing (not to mention stat boosting (I think fire has stat lowering)). Wind probably has little healing to allow each of the elements to be balanced (at least in my opinion).

Have a nice day.
 

[Aile~♥]

Sorry for the double post, but here is the list of healing psynergies.

Player Only (Can the wish series and revive be used by anyone? My memory is fuzzy atm)

Aura
Healing Aura
Cooling Aura
Wish
Wish Well
Pure Wish
Cure Poison
Restore
Revive
Aurora Field (Iris uses this when she is summoned)

Enemy Only

Earnest Ply (same as Pure Ply, but is for enemies only apparently)
Psy Boost

Useable by anyone

Cure
Cure Well
Potent Cure
Ply
Ply Well
Pure Ply

I noticed that wind doesn't have a healing move. Weird.

Healing Aura is used by Karst, and Wish Well is used by Menardi. Revive is not used by any enemies, but the revival dance or whatever it's called is used by Wonder Birds, Phoenixes and Fire Birds.

[Rolina]

That makes NO sense, actually.  Water > Earth > Wind > Fire is how it should be.  Just because you don't have anything to go off of with Wind doesn't mean it's the weakest.  Not to mention that Fire opposes Water!  The power of the Cool series is HALF that of the Wish series.  Compare that to Cure, which is 70% the power of the Ply series.  That alone shows that Earth > Fire at least.  Don't forget the Revive psynergy.

So far, we don't have a precedent in which to grade Wind.  As such, we should go by what opposes what.  That leaves you with two options:

Water > Earth > Fire > Wind
or
Water > Earth > Wind > Fire

depending on how you do it.  Personally, I go off of the same general thing that Golden Sun goes off of - the generally held view in RPGs that of the four elements, Water has the best healing, and Fire the worst.  Thus, I go with the second option of Water > Earth > Wind > Fire.  In my GSDG, I plan on rebalancing it a bit...

Water = 100% Water
Earth = 80% Water
Wind = 60% Water
Fire = 40% Water

As such, the base values I give them will be:

Ply -> Heals 100 HP
Cure -> Heals 80 HP
Calm -> Heals 60 HP
Warm -> Heals 40 HP

Wish -> Heals 80 HP to party
Heal -> Heals 64 HP to party
Breeze -> Heals 48 HP to party
Aura -> Heals 32 HP to party

And since Healing is broken in its default form in GS, we're amping up the cost of the spells, as well as the average level that they're learned.  For example, Ply is learned usually at level 1 or 2 in GS.  In the rebalanced system I use, Ply is learned at level 4...

You know what?  I'll just make an ASCII table for you.


,-----------------------------------------------.
| Psynergy . . . | Element |Effect| R |Cost| Lv |
|-----------------------------------------------|
| Warm . . . . . | Mars . .|c . 40| 1 |. 1 |. 1 |
| Warm Well . . .| Mars . .|c . 80| 1 |. 3 |. 9 |
| Healing Warm . | Mars . .|c. 160| 1 |. 7 | 17 |
|----------------+---------+------+---+----+----|
| Calm . . . . . | Jupiter |c . 60| 1 |. 2 |. 2 |
| Calm Well . . .| Jupiter |c. 120| 1 |. 5 | 11 |
| Pleasant Calm .| Jupiter |c. 240| 1 | 11 | 20 |
|----------------+---------+------+---+----+----|
| Cure . . . . . | Venus . |c . 80| 1 |. 3 |. 3 |
| Cure Well . . .| Venus . |c. 160| 1 |. 7 | 13 |
| Potent Cure . .| Venus . |c. 320| 1 | 15 | 23 |
|----------------+---------+------+---+----+----|
| Ply . . . . . .| Mercury |c. 100| 1 |. 4 |. 4 |
| Ply Well . . . | Mercury |c. 200| 1 |. 9 | 15 |
| Pure Ply . . . | Mercury |c. 400| 1 | 19 | 26 |
|----------------+---------+------+---+----+----|
| Aura . . . . . | Mars . .|c . 32|All|. 4 |. 9 |
| Warm Aura . . .| Mars . .|c . 64|All|. 9 | 21 |
| Healing Aura . | Mars . .|c. 128|All| 19 | 33 |
|----------------+---------+------+---+----+----|
| Breeze . . . . | Jupiter |c . 48|All|. 7 | 10 |
| Calming Breeze | Jupiter |c . 96|All| 15 | 23 |
| Healing Breeze | Jupiter |c. 192|All| 31 | 36 |
|----------------+---------+------+---+----+----|
| Heal . . . . . | Venus . |c . 64|All| 10 | 11 |
| Heal Well . . .| Venus . |c. 128|All| 21 | 25 |
| Potent Heal . .| Venus . |c. 256|All| 43 | 39 |
|----------------+---------+------+---+----+----|
| Wish . . . . . | Mercury |c . 80|All| 13 | 12 |
| Wish Well . . .| Mercury |c. 160|All| 27 | 27 |
| Pure Wish . . .| Mercury |c. 320|All| 55 | 42 |
`-----------------------------------------------'

We've also nerfed revive to heal to 25% HP, and added "True Revive" which heals to 50% HP.

Edit:  Actually, this gives me an idea.  If you've got an idea for rebalancing of psynergy, I'll have a new thread up for you to do it with.  

This post has been edited by Role on Jun 28 2009, 02:10 PM

[Salanewt]

Thanks Role. I was thinking as well about having Earnest Ply as a useable psynergy, and making it heal for than Pure Ply (but lower the totals, so Earnest Ply heals the same amount).

Also, I was thinking of another class series that is only healing (and maybe 1 or 2 offensive attacks). This would be a new class set that would fit in well with classes that are for single video game characters as well (sort of).

Anyway, I like these ideas as well, healing is too easy and too good (and changing Revive also makes the Sanctums for useful).

Have a nice day.
 

[Aile~♥]

If Revive heals 25% of max HP then it is useless. Especially against Agatio and Karst. You revive, and your guy is downed again an instant after. Wind also has the most powerful attack Psynergy in THE GAME, so I don't see why it should have stronger healing then Fire... How would Wind heal anyway? Blowing a breeze on something isn't likely to heal them, while warming someone by the fire just might, depending on the injury... Besides, Aura is actually more than 50% Wish... 60%, according to my calculations... You're right, at the end it is 50%, and in terms of PP cost/healing power, Earth is stronger. However, in my opinion it would make sense for it to work like this: Water>Earth>Fire>Wind. Opposite elements should have nothing to do with it, only common sense.

I think with the overpowered healing, the developers were trying to stress that it is better to heal and construct than to destroy.

[Rolina]

Actually, I have level 4 psys for all the healing psys as well, if y'all are interested.

@Jamie:  That's the point.  Revive is too broken right now.  The ideas I've had are "revive to 25%" and "revive to 33%".  When you class up enough, it CHANGES into TRUE REVIVE, which does "Revive to 50%" or "Revive to 67%".  They also both cost more PP to cast.  IF you don't wanna have to revive, then why not just keep your guys alive?

Anywho, if you're gonna follow the Fire>Wind, then flip the values for Warm/Aura and Calm/Breeze.  Then it should work pretty well for you.

This post has been edited by Role on Jun 28 2009, 03:12 PM

[Salanewt]

All of these ideas are good, and they make sense. However, why should Wind have more healing? I still think that if it were given healing, then it would be much better than the other elements. Healing (group), status ailments, base damage, and stat boosting is too good for one element. Fire has healing, base damage, and stat lowering psynergies, Water has healing (both single and group), and normal damage, and Earth has healing (single) and normal base damage. Group healing is not as good as single healing, but it heals the whole group. If Wind were given healing, then it would probably be considered better than the others, even if it is only group healing.

If I put in the effort, then I will try to make a Golden Sun elemental power web, including everything that each element has (base damage, healing, etc.).

Have a nice day.