do you care about privacy?

[Thunder-squall]

In the past, people feared "the evil eye."  Or was it "catching someone's eye?"  I can't remember.  But basically, being seen meant being a target.  And so in order to be safe, the idea either wasn't to be seen (like camouflage), or to disappear into the crowd (like zebras).

In today's tech realm, people are advocating that we get privacy through obscurity -- creating so much "noise" data that no individual can be picked out from it. I think that's like the Zebra example.  I think that's still controversial enough that it can spark a conversation.

[Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas]

Noise data...  and obscurity...


That makes me think of steganography... it's much better than Encryption because no one even knows anything is hidden. (Think of hiding you information in an image's binary data....)

[Thunder-squall]

That's a cool thing to bring up.  And it reminds of how young kids seek out secrecy (if not necessarily privacy) for their games and such.  I think keeping things secret helps people feel like they have more agency, or control over their lives...  It's interesting that you brought up God before.  God is often invoked as a sort of judgement, in the same way that our society judges us.  Having a part of our lives that are secret may give us respite from judgment, and I think sometimes people just need that.  They need mercy, in the face of strict rules.

[Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas]

Okay... but there is a difference between people and God. In my opinion. God is 'perfect', people are not. I could point out John 3:16... and say that God is Love, and loves us more than anyone else does... and bad things happen because we have free will. ...  It is in my general opinion that religion and politics are debatable and can lead to needless arguments, therefore, I probably won't take a lot of time to discuss them.

[Thunder-squall]

Meh.  Here on earth, God's had to make concessions for "the hardness of people's hearts," showing that no matter how pure or perfect may be in his own realm, that does not yet translate here.  Here, the best God can do is inspire an ideal that we can strive for.  And that ideal comes in the form of judgement that we place upon one another.

Basically, same diff.  I'm not sure what you're pointing out.

Edit: Basically, the only way most people are reminded that "God's watching" is when other people remind them, since God's not in the business of punishing folks while they're actually alive.

[Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas]

What I was pointing out: John 3:16 is about God sending his son to die on the cross to pay for our sins. People still have the choice to accept the gift, though. ; There's also some other verse about being saved not by good works...

I sometimes have this idea that everyone thinks of "God" differently... and I also think it's hard to know really who he is by your own judgement. So I guess we can just summarize by saying everything that has been good in your life comes from God... But yes, there is definitely still justice...



I'm also convinced to believe even angels have a choice between good and evil. At least at one point. Our choice is now, while on this earth, I believe. (What's Love without free will?)

Edit: Basically, the only way most people are reminded that "God's watching" is when other people remind them, since God's not in the business of punishing folks while they're actually alive.

I could say not 100% true, but... who am I to say? ... Think of Karma as an example, if you want... In my opinion, it's really the people punishing themselves. If you go and shoplift, you will eventually get caught... That's you putting yourself is prison, for example. (Because you should have known better.) ; But there are cases where people are falsely accused, so...

And, why in the world did I change the subject to religion? o.o But since we are talking about it, have you ever heard of Touched By An Angel?. (Most every episode is about Monica (an angel case worker) having a case where she has to tell someone God loves them. These people usually have problems of their own that Monica and other angels have to help solve. And if I recall correctly, the problems often relate to death.)

[Wolf]

Since we're on the subject.

Edit: Basically, the only way most people are reminded that "God's watching" is when other people remind them, since God's not in the business of punishing folks while they're actually alive.

God can keep people on the right path in ways they would never expect.

I'm also convinced to believe even angels have a choice between good and evil. At least at one point. Our choice is now, while on this earth, I believe. (What's Love without free will?)

The Devil was an angel who rebelled, so I think they do.  There is more information about that in the Bible.

[Thunder-squall]

For all intents and purposes, I'm an atheist.  My reading on god would be similar to The Creative Process in the Individual by T. Troward (old Christian dude who died circa the 1920s, public domain now, free ebook), though on it's own that's not an explanation for my following views:

WHAT GOD IS.

God, if he exists, doesn't concern himself with the plight of individuals.  I think this is evident from our real world today, and also from his behavior in the scriptures.  If he is concerned with our world, the only thing evidence would support is that he's concerned with the larger system as is the means for creating his kingdom of heaven on earth.  The reason I think he's concerned with the larger system is because that fits in line with him "working in mysterious ways."  The technical things to look at would be emergent properties or phenomenon, in which order seems to emerge from the chaos. 

Leaving the obvious example of evolution aside, I think the human results of this can begin to be seen in the recent book "The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined" by Steven Pinker (though I've only heard it discussed, and haven't yet read my copy).  Essentially, what's changing isn't the nature of man, but the complex system in which man exists.  And I do believe the systems we live in are super important, as demonstrated by "A Long Way Gone: Memoirs of a Boy Soldier," a memoir written by Ishmael Beah and published in 2007 (this one I did read).  It's got a semi happy ending, of course, since the author was alive and well as he went on his book tour, but in the book you basically see how the social structures that protected these kids broke away into chaos.

Essentially, when it comes to law, the highest law secular society accepts is something they call "natural law," and this isn't something you can write down anywhere.  It's synonymous with what religious types would identify as god's law, of god's justice.  That father who accepted back the prodigal son with open arms?  The lesson of that story wasn't that we should put into law the provision that people who abandoned us be celebrated upon return, but that within the gut response of our hearts, there may be god's sense of justice. So does this mean that people should always trust their guts?  If they are wise, and their hearts aren't poisoned, then sure. And I think the end goal is that we create a world where people can be wise, and that their hearts may not be poisoned.

So the closest thing we have to god is this phenomenon that the world's getting more complex and full of life (call it increased entropy if you want).  However, there's little reason to believe that this phenomenon is caused by something that has the various features which different religious groups identify as god.  In fact, many people who share this hope for a better world do *not* believe in a god (such as myself), and many people who claim to be god fearing do not seem to share this hope or ambition for a better world -- so while I do have faith in the direction of the universe and what not, I'm not sure if there's some magical old guy on a cloud, and if there is, whether or not he's a good guy or a bad guy.

HOW PEOPLE KNOW GOD

The same way we know all things.  We project.  We anthropomorphise.  There is literally no other ways for our brains to interpret these things.  And so we know this creative spirit via something like 'love,' and all these other human experiences.  The innovation of the new testament was that god was communicated as a person, which was easier for people to understand. But the historical Jesus was clearly a different guy than the storybook character in the bible.  And so was that burning bush.

There's psychological and neuroscience stuff that better explain the 'religious' experiences people have.

TL;DR:  I'm not sure what's the use of continuing to talk about mythology as fact (i.e. angels, demons, etc).  I think we can use modern philosophy, science, and history to further our understanding of "god's will," and at least in the United States, an insistence of sticking with mythology has led religious groups to fight against science education, or even social justice.  I mean, what do you make of a world where, in order to further God's will, you have to supposedly walk away from God?  It's just messed up, is all it is.


UH, BACK TO THE SUBJECT

I actually had a point I wanted to make, which was on "agents" vs. the "system."  I.e. when dealing with the crimes of people, do you investigate the individuals who did the crimes, or the system that led individuals to do the crimes?  Obviously there's a bit of both, and the debate is called "agent vs. system" (at least that's what I call it).  Basically, privacy (also the idea of god, incidentally) impacts the balance of agents vs. systems in a variety of weird ways.  We'll talk about it if you want to.

[Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas]

I think atheist is not believing in a God.
I think impartial is when you are undecided.

I'm not sure if there's some magical old guy on a cloud, and if there is, whether or not he's a good guy or a bad guy.

I don't look at it that way... I think of him being everywhere... (You cannot see him with your own human eyes.) But I have heard that people see a cloud, or something...? (Is that during meditation or something?) I forget the details, but if this is so, I think that's him representing himself as a way of connecting with us, but not sure. ; And I would think of him as being a good guy because he created all things. ;

I would normally think prophecy (Ex: prophets telling you what is to come that no one else could ever predict) could prove there is a God, but, you can take it as you want... (If you do manage to look into prophets... do note that there is such a thing as false prophets.)

I'm also guessing you don't believe in life after death. (Ever heard of stories where people are dead, and somehow, they come back to life to tell their experiences?)

[Thunder-squall]

I'm an atheist.  I may be also be a poet, but I distinguish between the poetry that is real, and poetry that one must make real.

@ Depictions of god:  Islam's got a pretty interesting view, in that they try not to depict god at all, because any depiction would be false. "My Name Is Red" by Orhan Pamuk is an interesting historical fiction that hits on this.  It's a murder mystery, actually.  Set among artists who work for the Sultan, and who must follow the philosophies of their time.

The prophet and cloud stuff you talked about has been studied by a whole host of researchers. You can find out more about if you want to, but I'm not going to push the issue since I know you depend on your beliefs.  I will say that if you like mythology, anything related to Carl Jung is pretty cool.

[Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas]

I actually only believe in that of Christianity... and I don't care for the other mythologies...

Either way, how can one go not believing in at least one lie? I bet everyone does it without even knowing it. This'll have to be mine, if that's the case.

But then, how do we define life, anyway? Is believing in Science a lie itself? Or is it a mere illusion of what is truth?

And I guess that's all I have to say...

[Thunder-squall]

@ lies:  BlindSight is a hardcore science fiction novel which asks interesting questions about what it means to be alive, and what is the true reality.

TL;DR:  Everything's a lie.

[Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas]

Except, I still believe in the presence of truth. (Not saying it's anyone else's belief, though.)

I'm guessing context is an important factor in that...


What if believing everything's a lie happens to be a lie?

[Thunder-squall]

It is a lie.  Because as you said, everything includes nothing, and if nothing is a lie, then everything must be true, but that means that nothing must also be true (because everything includes nothing), so...

Actually.  It could be true.  Or it could not be true.  I'm leaning more towards one than the other.

I actually only believe in that of Christianity... and I don't care for the other mythologies...

Why did you chose that one over the other ones?

[Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas]

If I said the obvious answer... it would be because that's the religion my family believes in.

Actually.  It could be true.  Or it could not be true.  I'm leaning more towards one than the other.

If you believed that everything is a lie, wouldn't it be true that you believe that? Or not?

I'm guessing you don't, because if you did believe your theory was true, you would contradict yourself. (Sort of.)

|| = This is infinity. Space can be divided for an eternity... Or... we could start from the right |, go anywhere you want. (Like around the world.), and end at the left |.

( truths / lies ) or (lies / truths) will give you what? Infinity?

[Thunder-squall]

none of that made any sense.  But truth be told, I'm just playing with you.  I'm not really interested in conversations where the best someone can contribute is "maybe it is, maybe it isn't."  That's just lame, and maybe this thread gave you an idea of just how lame it is.

[Misery]

I'm not really interested in conversations where the best someone can contribute is "maybe it is, maybe it isn't."

But, but... isn't that the answer to everything!?

[Thunder-squall]

It's not about getting the answer, but enjoying the journey.   Pulling the answer out at every step is like... premature ejaculation.

[Misery]

That's a pretty amazing definition. I never realized you had that view on these conversations...

please please don't take this seriously

[Thunder-squall]

conversations really get me excited.
being totally serious