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Author Topic: Feature Refining Thread  (Read 51791 times)
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Fox
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« Reply #60 on: January 03, 2012, 08:45:44 PM »

You are welcome,

I've also had this idea for a code hack to duplicate that chart for the second team: Instead of taking up more space, one could probably make them 16-bits, and if it is party 2, get the second 16-bit.. That way, when we go to edit, we can make anyone have the same class without duplicating classes, One problem, if I did this, the editor may become slightly incompatible. (?) I am not sure if it grabs these values in any way? (Hint the Auto box.)

Edit: This is what I mean (Attachment) It takes up the same ammount of space.. so..


* classsepidea.png (20.61 KB, 1132x400 - viewed 939 times.)
« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 10:05:20 PM by Teawater » Logged

Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...

Sometimes I like to compare apples to oranges. (Figuratively) ... They are both fruits, but which one would you eat more? (If taken literally, I'd probably choose apples.)
Maybe it is over-analyzing, but it doesn't mean the information is useless.
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Kide
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« Reply #61 on: January 03, 2012, 11:52:03 PM »

Yeah, after I saw that thing I was surprised it used so much space.

About your idea, wouldn't it work kinda similar to what we already have? Maybe if you explain this part
Quote
That way, when we go to edit, we can make anyone have the same class without duplicating classes
a little more, as I didn't understand what you're trying to say there.

Also, I don't know it for sure, but I believe the Auto box only uses info concerning elemental level needs for classes, and not the types themselves. At least at the current time. Since this is going to be changed... that could change as well. I think it won't cause any incompatibility issues, though.
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Fox
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« Reply #62 on: January 04, 2012, 01:20:52 AM »

I meant if we didn't want party 2's class type chart based off party 1's chart. Right now, without Atrius's patch you are forced with 2 pairs of PCs having access to the same classes (Isaac and Felix; Ivan and Sheba), with Atrius's patch, none of party 2 shares any classes with party 1, so you'd have to duplicate them in order to achieve that. But with my class patch idea, what you should be able to do is choose which pair of elements should refer to class types listed in party 1's and which should not.

Here's an example that wouldn't exactly work, but..., maybe I want to make Jenna use some of Isaac's classes... (For example, if it was mono-type classes, One could make the MarsMars slot on Party 2's class type chart the same as VenusVenus in party 1's class type chart.


Technically, that wouldn't work if Jenna has any other elements besides Venus with a higher level than 0 (since MarsMars a pure element.) So bad example, haha. The others might work, though. For the example you would probably edit party 2's MarsVenus and/or VenusMars.

Edit again: Though, nothing says that you can't make another class with just Mars requirements for the same class type. I imagine we could combine all the mono-classes into one class type, this way? That would total up to two different class types, one for Party 1's and the second for Party 2's.)






I wonder what it would be like if each character had their own chart...would it perhaps clear up some of the confusion a bit more for those who don't understand it? - since in the continuation of my example, I think Felix would have Isaac's classes if he had Mars djinn. - Edit: I imagine this to also come in handy for those who want all their highest elemental level to start at maybe 1.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 02:58:22 AM by Teawater » Logged

Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
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Sometimes I like to compare apples to oranges. (Figuratively) ... They are both fruits, but which one would you eat more? (If taken literally, I'd probably choose apples.)
Maybe it is over-analyzing, but it doesn't mean the information is useless.
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« Reply #63 on: January 04, 2012, 02:50:21 AM »

Honestly, I'd like to see a patch that separates it into four groups, and another that separates it into eight.  It'd allow for many more approaches for hacks, and would allow for branching classes.
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« Reply #64 on: January 05, 2012, 01:55:21 AM »

@Teawater: Ok, I think I understand it now. The main purpose of your idea would be to save some space if you're planning to share some classes between characters, right? This could be useful for some people, although its use is somewhat... restricted, maybe?

Quote
I imagine we could combine all the mono-classes into one class type, this way? That would total up to two different class types, one for Party 1's and the second for Party 2's.)
While this could be done, I don't think it would be much needed. All it would do is use a less quantity of class types, right?

Quote
I wonder what it would be like if each character had their own chart...would it perhaps clear up some of the confusion a bit more for those who don't understand it?
Well, I think that's what Role said in here
Quote
Honestly, I'd like to see a patch that separates it into four groups, and another that separates it into eight.  It'd allow for many more approaches for hacks, and would allow for branching classes.
Would you know how to do something like this, or how much trouble it would be to do it?

Also, I have a suggestion. Since the class type chart can be indeed changed, and quite easily, I wonder if the editor could do that for us. And maybe it could work with Teawater's patch idea as well. I don't know if this would fall into "stuff the editor isn't suposed to do" area, but it could be useful for some people.
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Atrius
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« Reply #65 on: January 05, 2012, 02:04:25 AM »

Quote
I wonder what it would be like if each character had their own chart...would it perhaps clear up some of the confusion a bit more for those who don't understand it?

More variables typically means more confusing.


If I did make the table editable, and/or splittable. I would HAVE to make it so that the editor only uses the class type value with no way to automatically detect it, or set it more easily than just manually setting the number.  You'd be creating a situation where it's possible to make a class that's aligned as primary Mars, secondary Mercury for one character to be pure Jupiter/Venus for a different character.
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Fox
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« Reply #66 on: January 05, 2012, 02:34:46 AM »

Quote
with no way to automatically detect it
That means you'd have to add something where the user can select the table used in the detection. Probably still confusing. But even if it didn't work, it still doesn't mean you can't implant the feature in. Maybe in a section for Advanced Users under Code Patches.  Though, in my opinion, I think it would be best to illustrate what the Class Type value means than making it automatic, anyway.  I remember in 11th grade learning something about knowledge being freedom, so the more knowledge you have on something, the more you can freely use it.

« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 02:39:47 AM by Teawater » Logged

Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
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Sometimes I like to compare apples to oranges. (Figuratively) ... They are both fruits, but which one would you eat more? (If taken literally, I'd probably choose apples.)
Maybe it is over-analyzing, but it doesn't mean the information is useless.
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« Reply #67 on: January 05, 2012, 02:51:00 AM »

Aye, just because some things get complicated doesn't mean we can't have advanced users who understand it.  Christ, Atrius, some of the people are delving head first into ASM, I think many of us can handle some advanced features.
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« Reply #68 on: January 05, 2012, 11:46:36 AM »

It's not like I wouldn't do it, there are already features in the editor catered specifically to advanced users (Hex editing for map code, anyone?)  I just prefer to try to keep things that can be presented in an easy manner accessable to everyone in a way that will make sense even if they're not intimately familiar with th underlying system.


Hmm...  Selecting a table used for detection?  No, the tables could be written in a way that automatic detection just doesn't make sense if too many odd combinations share the same value..  But I just came up with a good idea on how to present it that should work great for both beginners, and advanced users, thanks Teawater.  Yes, this will work out fantastically, I'll do it.
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Fox
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« Reply #69 on: January 06, 2012, 11:42:28 PM »

You are welcome, Atrius!

Hmm, this is still feature refining.. so I guess I can say this here. I have been doing a bit more research on the asm scripts npcs use... and I was wondering how easy it would be to get the editor to display these known values? I noticed the bl instructions in between, but they don't seem to make you lose that r5 value, so... (Most functions in Golden Sun seem to keep r5+ safe, so..)



Perhaps maybe it has something to do with the conditional (bne)? No idea... (In that case, I'd save the pointer and current variables that hold your register data.), keep reading the code checking to see of the address being read matches the address in the conditional, if it does... I don't know...? Do some data comparisons between the old register bank and the current one?? That would determine which ones are made "variable/non-constant".), get rid of pointer... and so on... Hmm.. It does take a bit of thought.... - Scratch that, I think the one with the lower address should be the one being read and dealt with...  - Except, it is hard to imagine what to do when the conditional points to a lower address (going backwards.) You probably just read it, anyway, using the address of the branch as the "stop" location. If you meet up with a bl instruction you already scanned for, you can compare values for constants.  As for stopping at the stop location... eh, dunno, I'm thinking of For events, and Do events, but they probably don't matter for this anyway.)

God of All Um... Teawater! I'm the one who lectures everyone!


P.S. As for the npc base functions... I think the argument matches the NPC number? Maybe, I would like to confirm this, though. I been looking around Daila keeping an eye on two values...

02030160 and the ones that are located in say... 16-bit 0200959C for the Item Shop Keeper in flooded Daila. I have not yet found out how those values are moved to 02030160, though. (When talking to the NPCs.)

 I wonder if that helps any.

5920 = Hm? You want a boat?[30]
5921 (Yes) = What kind of insensitive[3]
5022 (No) = Of course not![3]


Perhaps I will look up what these unknown functions do, as well. Hmm...


« Last Edit: January 07, 2012, 03:59:26 AM by Teawater » Logged

Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...

Sometimes I like to compare apples to oranges. (Figuratively) ... They are both fruits, but which one would you eat more? (If taken literally, I'd probably choose apples.)
Maybe it is over-analyzing, but it doesn't mean the information is useless.
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Rolina
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« Reply #70 on: January 07, 2012, 03:32:17 AM »

I look forward to it, Atrius. ^-^
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« Reply #71 on: January 07, 2012, 06:45:39 AM »

You seem to be working under the impression that the argument detector reads the code in the correct order.  It in fact reads it in reverse from the function call it's working on, if it encounters anything that would put the register in an unknown state it quits.  To begin with that bne call turns r5 into a variable, it's like an if statement (If r0==0 { r5++ } else {r5+=2 })  Trying to interpret an if statement with zero context would be difficult enough reading the code in proper order, but backwards?  At best the dialogue() call from 8270 is still screwed, as soon as it hits the command b $00008274 at 8266 it can't really make a guess how r5 made it past there.

I suppose though, that bl commands could be scanned to see if they push the register that's being watched.


You should also be aware that to begin with the argument scanning function is watching r0 here.
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Cbox
Yesterday at 04:54:34 AM
Fox: I guess one thing this game has going for it is the Day and Night cycle.
Yesterday at 04:51:46 AM
Fox: Also, I noticed since the very beginning of the game, that usually the dresser drawers (whatever you call them) have items in them.
Yesterday at 04:48:20 AM
Fox: (And I only recently got Karn, the fourth PC.)
Yesterday at 04:36:01 AM
Fox: Was playing Breath of Fire I.... and I must say.... that game's pretty bland.... listening to the same songs basically everywhere... and multiple NPCs saying the exact same thing.  Most of it plays about the same... a maze with common useless items in chests, maybe you'll get one or two fine equipment, but yeah.  ... I want to check #II again later, the game I remember playing like... over a decade ago.
February 04, 2020, 08:06:18 AM
Salanewt: We're more active on the Discord though.
February 04, 2020, 08:06:01 AM
Salanewt: Oh hey! It does, yeah.
February 02, 2020, 06:42:38 PM
Mastermind: holy crap this place still exists?
December 24, 2019, 09:33:09 PM
Fox: Even just plain Editor work can make some difference. = At least these forums are indexed on the Search engine. I was also curious about whether to um... go through all the topics on these forums and take all the important stuff out/placed into a folder for a bit of organization. Would be a bonus since if something ever happened to this forum, or if we ever wanted to start afresh again, it wouldn't be that difficult to do so.
December 24, 2019, 09:23:03 PM
Fox: One thing is for sure. This place has become completely dead. (Mostly because of Discord.)  = I don't think much will happen with this forum unless I, Salanewt, or someone else does a thing.
December 24, 2019, 09:18:05 PM
Fox: Probably not?
December 24, 2019, 06:51:08 PM
Luna_blade: I suppose this is the last Christmas of this forum? 
December 24, 2019, 06:50:51 PM
Luna_blade: Yay thanks for the coins
December 19, 2019, 04:39:45 AM
Fox: Okay, another thought... "gsmagic" could be the code name/project name... and "Golden Sun Magic" could be the more formal official name... (As in using both names.)  -  I still need to look into these other games as well... so who knows if it could be better to call it Camelot Magic if those should ever be supported to a decent standard.  Would probably be a long time from now, though. As I can be pretty lazy.
December 18, 2019, 10:01:39 PM
Foreclosure: gsmagic is fine
December 17, 2019, 05:44:32 PM
Fox: Also. I call my program "gsmagic" and not "GSMagic" =P (Not asking for correction/I being silly)... Had to call it something, so picked something short.  Maybe I should rename it to Golden Sun Magic later. *shrug*
December 17, 2019, 05:35:04 PM
Fox: (And "Golden Sun" instead of "GS" to reduce confusion that would likely not be there anyway... when "Golden Sun" doesn't take up much space to start with. (Imagine being new and thinking GS meant GameShark, or some other oddity. Ew.)) - All just thoughts...I'm still going with most of this not mattering that much, though.
December 17, 2019, 05:12:55 PM
Fox: "Misc. GS Hacking" = That name looks odd, so I'd probably just go with "Golden Sun Hacking"
December 17, 2019, 05:08:05 PM
Fox: I tempted to also suggest the Editors can go in the first category. Since the Editor is the reason this place exists in the first place. (I think.)
December 17, 2019, 04:53:19 PM
Fox: (combined = Not meant to be taken literally... but rather.... to generalize things more, since it apparently looks like we don't need the extra space no one is using.)
December 17, 2019, 04:48:49 PM
Fox: Worse still... we've only used those for Golden Sun content.... and there's not much there.
December 17, 2019, 04:45:53 PM
Fox: E.g. Maybe everything in "Assets & Discussion" could be combined with "Creative Works".... I don't feel like sound and art apply to general hacking anyway... that only comes into play when you have tools to insert them.
December 17, 2019, 04:40:26 PM
Fox: categories and/or forums
December 17, 2019, 04:36:48 PM
Fox: Everything else seems to be about right, though. Perhaps some categories could be combined(?), but doesn't really matter that much.
December 17, 2019, 04:33:03 PM
Fox: (I still think The Community section fits best at the bottom. =P)
December 15, 2019, 05:10:04 PM
Salanewt: Heya! I'm planning to get the demo up today, but if you can't wait then it's already available on the Discord.
December 15, 2019, 04:12:27 AM
Fox: (Then sell the badges on the Trade Center for a very high price... and give a lot of active people coins to buy them with, so they can basically transfer the coins to me if they want something... Gosh I could be a naughty hoarder. =P)
December 15, 2019, 04:06:19 AM
Fox: I'd buy up all the stock for each item too... but man... I think I'm too lazy for that. =P
December 15, 2019, 04:01:24 AM
Fox: There we go. That should be all of them.
December 15, 2019, 03:25:32 AM
Fox: Duplicates will still show up as separate entries on the profile as well. Interestingly enough.
December 15, 2019, 03:18:25 AM
Fox: (Well, one of each badge, at least.)

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