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 Elemental Weapons
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jjppof
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« on: May 21, 2014, 08:08:08 PM »

That weapons like elven rapier, fire brand, gaia blade, sylph rapier... these elemental weapons... how it works?
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leaf
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« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2014, 08:30:31 PM »

They treat your basic attack as being an EPA of their given element (uses same formula as say... ragnarok or an unleash), but with a 1.0 multiplier and +0 added damage.

edit: Here's a good source for battle mechanics: http://www.gamefaqs.com/gba/561356-golden-sun-the-lost-age/faqs/22880
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 08:38:02 PM by leaf » Logged

Spoiler for quotes:
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O
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jjppof
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« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2014, 02:37:45 AM »

They treat your basic attack as being an EPA of their given element (uses same formula as say... ragnarok or an unleash), but with a 1.0 multiplier and +0 added damage.

edit: Here's a good source for battle mechanics: http://www.gamefaqs.com/gba/561356-golden-sun-the-lost-age/faqs/22880

Thank you... I'm gonna read this to implement elemental weapons.

-------------EDIT------------------------

Just to see whether It's right:

A gaia blade normal attack formula:

((Attack - Defense) / 2 + bonus damage) * (1 + (Caster Venus Power - Taker Venus Resistance) / 400)
bonus damage = 0
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 03:29:46 AM by jjppof » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2014, 05:04:28 AM »

Yep. More accurately, it's

([([(Attack - Defense) / 2] * multiplier bonus) + add bonus] * [1 + (Attacker Venus Power - Defender Venus Resistance) / 400]) + rand(0,3)
multiplier bonus = 1
add bonus = 0

You just forgot the multiplier bonus (which is still just 1, granted, but it's important if you plan on reusing the formula for all EPAs) and the rand(0,3).

Gaia blade normal attack: mult = 1, add = 0
Gaia blade crit (not unleash): mult = 1.25, add = some voodoo based on enemy level; you can check the document I linked for details
Gaia blade unleash: mult = 1, add = 70
Flint unleash: mult = 1.6, add = 0
Raganarok psynergy: mult = 1, add = 35
etc.

I'm not sure if the way crits truly work is actually documented anywhere (as in, how it calculates when an attack hits "critically" instead of doing an unleash). Sala or teawater might be able to give you some insight into that.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 05:10:46 AM by leaf » Logged

Spoiler for quotes:
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O
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« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2014, 06:45:41 PM »

From what I'm seeing in the code, critical damage looks like this:

if 0
No critical hit.

if 1
Critical Hits:
    Damage = [Base Damage * 1.25] + [Target's Level / 5] + 6

if 2
Critical Hits:
    Damage = [Base Damage * 1.5] + [Target's Level / 5] + 6


I'm still looking at the chance that a critical attack would occur, but I believe I have the general area to research, and it does make use of the random number generator.

081244DC = When "1" is used.
08124624 = When "2" is used.

It's quite much to study.

Looks like ability effects 36-40 might be used for one part. The *1.5 crit (Labeled as "?" in the editor.) So time to dive in!
36 = x1.5 dmg (1/64 chance)
37 = x1.5 dmg (1/32 chance)
38 = x1.5 dmg (1/16 chance)
39 = x1.5 dmg (1/8 chance)
40 = x1.5 dmg (1/4 chance)
41 = x2 dmg (32/256 chance)
42 = x2 dmg (64/256 chance)
43 = x3 dmg (32/256 chance)
44 = x3 dmg (64/256 chance)

65 = x2 dmg (153/256 chance)

68 = x3 dmg (153/256 chance)


89 = x3 dmg (128/256 chance), x2 dmg (51/256 chance), x1 dmg (77/256 chance)

Some numbers may or may not be off by 1/256... Since one may need to check the branching to know for sure. (Ex: Difference between > and >=)

(I'll have to see the rest of the formula to know if these are used by themselves or not.)
« Last Edit: May 24, 2014, 01:47:32 PM by Teawater » Logged

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Remember kids! Before you go on that interview, remember to wash your hands in teawater! *Coughs on hand* (Excuse me, I just coughed up a little teawater, so they're still clean!) You wouldn't want that hiring manager to be unimpressed.

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jjppof
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« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2014, 07:54:54 PM »

An EPA weapon, like gaia blade, has a elemental critical (if this really exist), not unleash, or it uses the normal critical formula?

Look this snippet from goldensunwiki.net/Critical:
"Criticals are not aligned with an element, and have no additional effects besides the extra damage."

And...
From this formula:

final damage = ((base damage * 1.25) + (target's level / 5) + 6)
base damage = (atk - def)/2, right?

Teawater, are you saying that criticals aren't always with this 1.25, could be 1.5 but you don't know when it happens? I didnt understand the if 0, if 1 and if 2.
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JamietheFlameUser
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« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2014, 08:18:50 PM »

Criticals with an elemental weapon uses whatever element the weapon has assigned. For example, the Sylph Rapier's normal attacks are Wind-aligned, so its critical hits are also Wind-aligned. You can observe this effect in-game by wielding the Sylph Rapier and scoring a critical on something like, for example, a Seabird. The text will display "Seabird1 takes XX damage!!!" with triple exclamation marks, just as if using an elemental ability the foe is weak to.

And yes, what Teawater is saying is that sometimes criticals use 1.25x damage, and other times they use 1.5x damage, and he has no idea what triggers this difference. It might be weapon-dependent, or there might be two different kinds of critical hits.

It's also rather interesting that criticals appear to have set effect rates like that, instead of being calculated in a manner similar to unleash rate. Does this mean that "increases criticals" doesn't actually increase critical rate, it ONLY increases unleash rate? Or am I missing something here?
« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 08:21:10 PM by JamietheFlameUser » Logged

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jjppof
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« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2014, 08:30:41 PM »

Criticals with an elemental weapon uses whatever element the weapon has assigned. For example, the Sylph Rapier's normal attacks are Wind-aligned, so its critical hits are also Wind-aligned. You can observe this effect in-game by wielding the Sylph Rapier and scoring a critical on something like, for example, a Seabird. The text will display "Seabird1 takes XX damage!!!" with triple exclamation marks, just as if using an elemental ability the foe is weak to.

How the final formula stays?

Then GS wiki is wrong about saying that criticals are not aligned to an element?
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« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2014, 09:32:27 PM »

It's not wrong but it's not fully accurate, either. Most weapon's basic attacks are null element, even if they have an elemental unleash. So, most weapon's crits are also null element. Gaia blade is an exception to the rule, since its basic attack is of a non-null element. Perhaps a more accurate way to phrase the rule then is "The critical of a weapon has the same element as that weapon's basic attack (usually no element)."
« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 09:34:29 PM by leaf » Logged

Spoiler for quotes:
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O
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« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2014, 04:36:13 PM »

Small update!

x1.25 applies to ability 1.

x1.5 applies only to the 5 ability effects. (Interesting enough.)
36 = x1.5 dmg (1/64 chance)
37 = x1.5 dmg (1/32 chance)
38 = x1.5 dmg (1/16 chance)
39 = x1.5 dmg (1/8 chance)
40 = x1.5 dmg (1/4 chance)

So yeah, seeing as those are labeled"?", these may be unused, which may explain one reason why x1.5 may not have ever been documented?


@Attack:
If you have delusion, this check is made: If rand(0,255) <= 152, you'll miss. (aka: Multiplier thingy set to 0)
There is another check made regardless: 1/32 chance of missing.


As for Criticals...
-First check: 1/32 chance of a critical hit.
-Second check: ((Adds up Increases Criticals values from equipped items) << 16) / 200 > rand(0x0, 0xFFFF)

So what I recommend you do for Crits, is the 1/32 check, and then Increases Criticals values for equipped items. (Without the <<16 and /200 part, since you can probably base you numbers from 0x0 to 0xFFFF directly.)
« Last Edit: May 24, 2014, 05:01:30 PM by Teawater » Logged

Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...

Remember kids! Before you go on that interview, remember to wash your hands in teawater! *Coughs on hand* (Excuse me, I just coughed up a little teawater, so they're still clean!) You wouldn't want that hiring manager to be unimpressed.

May the force be with you!
Shoo! Why does it smell in here?
Maybe that's the wrong kind of force. *smirk*
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leaf
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« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2014, 06:21:40 PM »

So would it be accurate to say that the first check is for the typical "critical," while the second check is for an unleash (which then becomes a standard crit if the weapon doesn't have one)? And if that's the case, does the second check override the first? E.g. first check runs and is a success, second check runs and is also a success. Or does the second check not run at all if the first is a success?
Logged

Spoiler for quotes:
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O
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« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2014, 07:10:25 PM »

I dunno if it's that simple. I've seen weapons with an unleash appear to land more criticals if you have "Increases Criticals" effects active. If, for example, the weapon has by default a 5% unleash rate, and you have 30% worth of "Increases Criticals" effects, you're still going to land criticals fairly often in addition to unleashes.

I wouldn't be surprised if x1.5 criticals are used for regular attacks made by certain foes. It's also possible that some weapons may have a hardcoded override to use those ability effects instead. (Nobody would be likely to notice, especially if the weapons in question are early-game weapons or also have an unleash rate.)
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Zelos: Let's not start on this again...

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« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2014, 07:56:51 PM »

@leaf:Whoops. I forgot to explain that bit.

If first check is a success, the Critical Hit is applied.
If first check is not a success, the second check is done.

Both checks will do the same thing by setting the same RAM value to 1.

I didn't see the Unleash Rate used in the above Critical Hits study... however, I did just do a quick look-up on some  Unleash stuff...

When looking up unleashes... at least the part near the "lets out a howl" stuff... I find there's another part where Increased Criticals is calculated... unlike what I studied with Critical Hits, this one divides by 100 instead of 200.

((Unleash Rate + Adds up Increases Criticals values from equipped items) << 16) / 100 > rand(0x0, 0xFFFF)


@Jamie: From what I have seen in the code, this is as much as I know of, so far... I could be missing other things... but it just takes so long to study and verify every code trail. (And with so much to study, there may even be room for error. I try to be careful, though.)

And your hard-code idea sounds plausible...  but not sure yet, until I see an example in the code where they are done explicitly with ability effects.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2014, 08:21:11 PM by Teawater » Logged

Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...

Remember kids! Before you go on that interview, remember to wash your hands in teawater! *Coughs on hand* (Excuse me, I just coughed up a little teawater, so they're still clean!) You wouldn't want that hiring manager to be unimpressed.

May the force be with you!
Shoo! Why does it smell in here?
Maybe that's the wrong kind of force. *smirk*
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« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2014, 08:20:59 PM »

Oh, interesting. So then, does that mean a "+12% increased criticals" effect is actually only +6% in terms of getting a true crit?

There's also still the matter of which properties win out over other ones. For instance:
- Unleash
- Crit
- Miss

Which of these takes priority over the others? Intuitively, it seems unleashes should take priority over crits, but where do misses fit in to all this?
Logged

Spoiler for quotes:
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O
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« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2014, 01:28:45 AM »

Another thing I'm curious about is an unused Ability Effect that was mentioned a long time ago.

I don't remember what number it was, but when the ability targets a combatant the following text appears:

"[target] rises to the challenge!"

I'm wondering if perhaps this ability effect changes the target's 1/32 critical (the first check) to use one of the ability effects from 36 to 40. As I recall, whoever brought that effect up mentioned that there was some code that they didn't understand what it did.
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April 25, 2018, 09:02:13 PM
Fox: Yes. The best tool is a hex editor. Well.... VBA, VBA-SDL-H, no$gba Debugger, GBATEK, and my documentation.... to use these to learn how the code/data works. Best method because it maximizes your editing ability... and then there is my program gsmagic that I was working on. Still in its early stages, though. (Even after year(s).)
April 25, 2018, 04:21:58 PM
Xendrox D: *exept tla editor.
April 25, 2018, 04:21:29 PM
Xendrox D: is there any other tool for hacking gs?
April 23, 2018, 09:26:27 PM
Atrius: Rarely, but not never.
April 23, 2018, 08:01:48 AM
Drake baku: Can it be, the god who created the editor, atrius. I heard you never came back online here anymore
April 20, 2018, 02:46:36 PM
KyleRunner: Atrius!!
April 19, 2018, 11:29:46 PM
Atrius: @Fox, I tried, but for some reason Mario Golf won't boot, and Mario Tennis crashes when you patch out the text compression, and I'm not sure why...  The normal text loading functions in them are basically the same as the ones in the Golden Sun games.

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