Golden Sun Hacking Community
November 19, 2017, 12:17:57 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
  Home   Forum   DC Wiki Help Search Calendar Downloads Login Register  
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: OOB Walls and Encounters  (Read 18820 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Regular Member
**

Coins: 2
Offline Offline

Posts: 135

« on: January 26, 2015, 07:17:02 PM »

This is a topic I've long been curious about as it begins to suggest that the out of bounds (OOB) world of Golden Sun is an incredible mess. For the record, this applies to Golden Sun 1 as well but is more pronounced in Golden Sun 2. Anyway, let's talk about what the issue is.

We've spent an awful long time working out how to navigate the OOB world because there are loading zones/doors that you can access here that can warp you various places. One well known instance of this is the Gondowan skip which allows you to go from Indra to Gondowan pretty much anytime that you like. In particular, in a speed run after getting scoop you will go do the Kibombo quest and get Piers etc before fighting Briggs (and activating the flag for the rope that allows you to pass through the mountains). Here's one possible Gondowan skip; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05FNHFx6LeI here is another https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEaYMVn5cH0 and the one we currently use in speedruns is slightly different again.

Gondowan skip is also an example of the problem we currently have. All of these methods work so long as you maintain a 0 BRN i.e. get no encounters.

Bizarrely, getting certain encounters will completely change the OOB landscape. Most often this will result in walls being put up everywhere preventing you from accessing anything useful. The prominent example in this area is getting the 2 chest beater party. Once you hit that the landscape changes and there's not much you can do except save, reset and try again.

Other places where getting 'bad' encounters is known to cause trouble include the Aqua Rock skip, Vale Cave Skip (gs1) and Sol Sanctum skip (gs1). Whatever information/files that would be useful to help diagnose the problem here I'll happily supply. More than happy to answer questions if I've been unclear or left out information!
Logged
View Profile
Salanewt
His Sexiness
Mercury Clan

Oh yeah, baby!

Prodigy
*

Coins: 32
Offline Offline

I am: A part of the organization of Cool Cats, but more of a dog person in reality.
Emblems: Have a nice day.
Posts: 4565

« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2015, 01:54:30 PM »

A couple other things as well, though they may not quite be "OOB" in the same manner as what you are talking about (especially since these only apply to areas you are not supposed to be able to reach within GS2's normal boundaries, and are far less useful than the examples you have discussed);

Angara:
- There's a warp to Indra almost directly south of the Kolima forest, on a little peninsula surrounded by river
- The bridge area southwest of Kolima changes the surrounding area so it uses the Prox overworld tileset (snowy area with lightning void)
- I think there may be a Yampi Desert warp around here as well, but I can't remember 100% where it is

Indra:
- There's an additional warp to Dekhan somewhere inside the mountains; the in-game world map shows a clear path through them, so they likely added the sprites and mountains later on and forgot to fix the map
- If you find some way to get here without the boat (such as walking through walls on the overworld), then you can fight Iron in the water north of Gondowan Cliffs; I don't think it works if you skip fighting it and then travel around here by boat

Debug (either of the two that have Sol Sanctum tiles):
- If you figure out how to escape the camera-locked portion, there is additional terrain to the left that you can walk on (I think the editor can show you this stuff as well)


As for what you are talking about in particular, this is some very interesting stuff. Do you have any idea why this happens (I never even knew it was a thing, but it looks like Retreat Glitch stuff)? Also, BRN?
Logged

Oh yeah baby, £ me harder.

Fusion is just a cheap tactic to make weak Adepts stronger.

Yoshi's Lighthouse is a hacking website in progress. Why not check it out if you like Yoshi or the Mario & Luigi games?
View Profile WWW
Fox
Fox McCloud, the Hacking Doctor
Mercury Clan

Prodigy
*

Coins: 28
Offline Offline

I am: certainly not a Gallant!
Clan Position: Head Gallant
Posts: 2378

« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2015, 04:27:05 PM »

GRN = General Random Number
BRN = Battle Random Number

I think. Or at least, that's the way I'd see it, since one random number is only used in battles, the other seems to be everything else. (Including fleeing from battle.)
« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 04:30:24 PM by Fox » Logged

Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...
*Cross my fingers and hope we have Big Brother All-Stars next year... with Paulie & Cody Califorie(sp?)... and Vanessa & Tiffany Rousso.... Would be fun? :P Especially if one of the boys got evicted early since there's usually some all-guy alliance in there, right?
View Profile

Regular Member
**

Coins: 2
Offline Offline

Posts: 135

« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2015, 05:44:39 PM »

A couple other things as well, though they may not quite be "OOB" in the same manner as what you are talking about (especially since these only apply to areas you are not supposed to be able to reach within GS2's normal boundaries, and are far less useful than the examples you have discussed);

Angara:
- There's a warp to Indra almost directly south of the Kolima forest, on a little peninsula surrounded by river
- The bridge area southwest of Kolima changes the surrounding area so it uses the Prox overworld tileset (snowy area with lightning void)
- I think there may be a Yampi Desert warp around here as well, but I can't remember 100% where it is

Indra:
- There's an additional warp to Dekhan somewhere inside the mountains; the in-game world map shows a clear path through them, so they likely added the sprites and mountains later on and forgot to fix the map
- If you find some way to get here without the boat (such as walking through walls on the overworld), then you can fight Iron in the water north of Gondowan Cliffs; I don't think it works if you skip fighting it and then travel around here by boat
Ah yes, you're talking about the existence of out of bounds doors on the world map. Slightly different phenomena as I'm talking about one within maps/dungeons. As far as I'm aware, there are a handful if out of bounds doors scattered across the whole world map sending you to one of five locations. They access Daila, Yampi Desert (from alhafra side), Sea of Time, Atteka Inlet and Northern Reaches. We can actually access these using a fairly well known glitch resulting the the first flight cutscene. Here's a little discussion on that http://www.twitch.tv/tl_plexa/c/4525777

With regard to the Prox overworld tileset, and interesting bug is that during the final credits scene immediately north of Mt Aleph is an area which is normally covered in snow, but renders as grass due to the position of the camera! Pretty funny.

Quote
Debug (either of the two that have Sol Sanctum tiles):
- If you figure out how to escape the camera-locked portion, there is additional terrain to the left that you can walk on (I think the editor can show you this stuff as well)
That would imply that we're able to access the debug room without hacking! #thedream

Quote
As for what you are talking about in particular, this is some very interesting stuff. Do you have any idea why this happens (I never even knew it was a thing, but it looks like Retreat Glitch stuff)? Also, BRN?
I'm not sure why the out of bound terrain changes! But I'm up to speed on everything else. Fox is correct when he says BRN = battle random number (I adopted his terminology when he gave me the addresses a long time ago haha! You're also correct Fox, BRN determines the kind of attack use, whether you get random drops, whether statuses are inflicted, damage dealt and so on. GRN deals with everything else including some functions in battle like where an attack is targetted.)

Anyway, this does indeed involve the retreat glitch. We can use that to get out of bounds and off screen there are a bunch of invisible loading zones that take you to various loading zones from the first room of the map that retreat would normally send you to. Our current working theory for why these doors even exist is that they are remnants of when the game was programmed and the devs were too lazy to remove all the ones that they thought would be inaccessible. I like to call them junk doors for this reason.

Here's an illustration of the gondowan skip (as I presented in the OP) working correctly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8geBiaGZRhU&t=38m15s
If I got a mob of 2 chest beaters as the first encounter (I haven't extensively tested past the first encounter) it will change the landscape of the out of bounds terrain, and in particular block me from accessing these doors in the normal way.
Logged
View Profile
Fox
Fox McCloud, the Hacking Doctor
Mercury Clan

Prodigy
*

Coins: 28
Offline Offline

I am: certainly not a Gallant!
Clan Position: Head Gallant
Posts: 2378

« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2015, 06:12:39 PM »

Quote
Our current working theory for why these doors even exist is that they are remnants of when the game was programmed and the devs were too lazy to remove all the ones that they thought would be inaccessible. I like to call them junk doors for this reason.
I think I'd maybe like to disagree with that theory?
I haven't done much research, but I suspect it's more related to reading data that was actually meant for other things. (Like reading non-map data as map data.)

For example, 020301A4 and 020301A8 hold the address to the tile the player is on. (Map data is 02010000 - 0201FFFF ... If that address isn't in the zone, it's reading data it's not supposed to.) For example, moving the player north of the map, will bring it under 02010000... ; The World Map's map data may have a different range of addresses.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 06:37:49 PM by Fox » Logged

Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...
*Cross my fingers and hope we have Big Brother All-Stars next year... with Paulie & Cody Califorie(sp?)... and Vanessa & Tiffany Rousso.... Would be fun? :P Especially if one of the boys got evicted early since there's usually some all-guy alliance in there, right?
View Profile

Regular Member
**

Coins: 2
Offline Offline

Posts: 135

« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2015, 06:17:46 PM »

Awesome! That sounds really interesting. There is at least one lazy programmer door in Vault Cave though :) but this sounds like a much more promising explanation for the underflowed doors. Any other addresses that I should be aware of before I go examining things?
Logged
View Profile
Fox
Fox McCloud, the Hacking Doctor
Mercury Clan

Prodigy
*

Coins: 28
Offline Offline

I am: certainly not a Gallant!
Clan Position: Head Gallant
Posts: 2378

« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2015, 06:34:40 PM »

Not sure. But you probably should be aware that 02008000-0200FFFF is map code data, and that if you visit one room that uses a large map code file, and then go to another one that uses a smaller map code file.... You'd still remain with some of the map code data from the old file, since it wouldn't be big enough to overwrite the rest.
 
Also, because Golden Sun converts their branch links from relative and absolute addressing for compression purposes, I suspect this might be why you shouldn't enter battle for some of that stuff to work? (And that's for the entire 02008000-0200FFFF scope, and not just for the map code file's size, I think.)
Logged

Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...
*Cross my fingers and hope we have Big Brother All-Stars next year... with Paulie & Cody Califorie(sp?)... and Vanessa & Tiffany Rousso.... Would be fun? :P Especially if one of the boys got evicted early since there's usually some all-guy alliance in there, right?
View Profile

Regular Member
**

Coins: 2
Offline Offline

Posts: 135

« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2015, 07:05:36 PM »

So, first thing is that in the two places I checked it looked like these underflowed doors only existed when the tile value was reading a value in the 02008000-02000FFFF range which was away from the zeroed values. For instance, in Gondowan cliffs the last non-zero value is 02000A740 i.e. 02000A744-02000FFFF are all zero. So that's a partial confirmation of your theory right there.

So next thing I did was compare the memory between a file that had gotten the problematic 2 chest beater party and one that had no encounters. The differences in the 02008000-FFFF range occurred in only 27 addresses. The majority were in the 02009AXX range. Whereas the problem (of walls appearing) is occurring elsewhere, e.g. when looking up 0200ECAC

Logged
View Profile
Fox
Fox McCloud, the Hacking Doctor
Mercury Clan

Prodigy
*

Coins: 28
Offline Offline

I am: certainly not a Gallant!
Clan Position: Head Gallant
Posts: 2378

« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2015, 07:58:31 PM »

So? Do you know of anything that edits map tiles based on player position? (Either event-related or psynergy-related?)

If we can figure this out, it's quite likely one could beat the game once they've accessed it. (Maybe even to the point of accessing the debug mode.) It depends on the limitation of how it would write to memory, though.


(I think there are events that can copy tiles to other tiles... at least when such an event is coded for it, but I haven't quite figured out any that are player-position related.)
« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 08:18:32 PM by Fox » Logged

Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...
*Cross my fingers and hope we have Big Brother All-Stars next year... with Paulie & Cody Califorie(sp?)... and Vanessa & Tiffany Rousso.... Would be fun? :P Especially if one of the boys got evicted early since there's usually some all-guy alliance in there, right?
View Profile

Regular Member
**

Coins: 2
Offline Offline

Posts: 135

« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2015, 08:29:03 PM »

Unfortunately I don't know anything that manipulates tiles =/ everything interacts with objects aside from in game events (like activating jupiter lighhouse and so on).

Few ideas about manipulating the addresses though.

1) Ankhol ruins sand. I mentioned it in the speedrunning thread, but soft resetting retains the sand - it's probably tied up in this.
2) Using your suggestion about large maps causing overflow, I figured that loading a different save file then soft resetting could keep some of the map data in memory. I gave this a quick test in GS1 in Sol Sanctum and there were differences between a hard reset, soft reset after saving and loading a different save file, soft resetting then loading the first file.

(2) seems plausible, but I'd need to know what maps are 'large' and which are 'small' to test that out.
Logged
View Profile

Regular Member
**

Coins: 2
Offline Offline

Posts: 135

« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2015, 03:28:04 PM »

So I got my good friend Bloodduster to test out some stuff related to this (specifically testing the second theory above). Here's what he found: http://www.twitch.tv/bloodduster/c/5985182

Here's a summary:
1) Standard OOB: Run up, hit spikes, tret cutscene plays if you go up+left or down right
2) Sanctum warp, soft reset OOB: Run up, encounter tret much earlier without having to go left/right
3) Load Sol Sanctum file, soft reset OOB: Run up, there's just a wall everywhere. (this was not shown in the video)

This confirms that loading a different save file, soft resetting then loading the original file can change the OOB terrain.

We also hunted around for doors for one of these non-standard OOBs. It looks like all the doors were still sending you around tret i.e. the door instructions were all relative to the map you were in, as opposed to absolute. Which is a bit of a shame as it means this is unlikely to be useful.
Logged
View Profile
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Cbox
November 16, 2017, 09:44:44 AM
Fox: Very quiet month.
November 11, 2017, 04:16:27 AM
tino_animate: Hello everyone. Ive just recently replayed Golden sun and TLA. I got really inspired and I'm interested in creating a prequel of Golden Sun. Unfurtunatly i know bery little on how to do it bit im willing to learn how. I need a few people to help me. I'm sure we can create a very well story based on what we know of the games. Anyone interested?
October 16, 2017, 09:57:26 AM
AZVRE: Im pretty okay, what about you?
October 16, 2017, 01:17:14 AM
Fox: I think the nine is doing a cirno on me, though... Anyway, how is everyone doing today?
October 16, 2017, 01:12:20 AM
Fox: onesixtwo*
October 16, 2017, 01:12:00 AM
Fox: Okay... Meanwhile... ah... 162 being a number that has made itself known to me.... I look at the relationships of the numbers.... 162  1+6+2 = 9 ; onesizetwo = alphabetical order = 9 characters ; Distance apart analysis: os = 4 = 1[6][2] , st = 1 = [1]6[2] , ot = 5 = [1][6]2 ; ost = original sound track?
October 15, 2017, 06:31:17 PM
AZVRE: ah okay :D i thought i caused some trouble
October 14, 2017, 07:49:16 AM
Fox: Oh i know... You were messing with yours, and the description says mine. It's kind of a funny bug. :P
October 13, 2017, 08:18:31 PM
AZVRE: I did not edit your profile tho. Just to erase that confusion ^^"
October 12, 2017, 04:49:56 AM
Fox: e.g. this art = http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/Themes/Jupiter/images/catbg.gif (etc.)
October 12, 2017, 04:48:58 AM
Fox: I have a question: Where did the art for the headers come from? (Like the backgrounds to each of these things... "Affiliates", etc... Asking just incase it inspires me to do something... but if Charon made it, then that's cool too.
October 11, 2017, 04:23:02 AM
FoxWas thinking about having something for the editor anniversary, but I believe I had to change my mind....
October 10, 2017, 12:58:36 PM
Fox: That's alright. ;       @AZVRE's profile: "Current Activity:  Editing the profile of Fox." ...Eh... That looks weird.
October 07, 2017, 11:45:16 PM
Atrius: Sorry about that, the auto bot detection is still working, but it also requires an admin to visit the site regularly.
October 04, 2017, 04:17:40 AM
Fox: Yeah, it does bring a small amount of activity. Not good quality activity, but it's still activity, nonetheless.  Now if we can get them to randomly post pictures and vdeios!
October 04, 2017, 02:10:48 AM
Majora: If nothing else, I like how they're copying the content of real posts at random. Interesting to see how they adapt to seem more authentic
October 03, 2017, 08:29:38 PM
Fox: medico6601 = Most likely another bot. :(
September 26, 2017, 03:32:24 PM
Fox: by ten* Excuse me.
September 26, 2017, 03:32:12 PM
Fox: Oh yes... Also multiply all levels by two. (So actually, an adept will have levels of 54, 3, 2, and 1, rather than 5, 0, 0, 0.... if going by those.)
September 26, 2017, 03:29:07 PM
Fox: ...I mean the theory also saves space on the Status Screen.

Affiliates
Temple of Kraden Golden Sunrise
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.068 seconds with 22 queries.