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Author Topic: Golden Sun: The Found Age  (Read 7183 times)
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« on: February 10, 2015, 02:34:13 AM »

Go to http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=2618.msg43478#msg43478 for actual, revised topic.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 02:35:18 PM by kamikazetomato » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2015, 03:58:40 AM »

Replacing the polished Rusty Items ought to be as simple as replacing the polished Rusty items. 

I think.
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« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2015, 04:03:25 AM »

Replacing the polished Rusty Items ought to be as simple as replacing the polished Rusty items. 

I think.
Erm. Yeah. That's already all set, I just want to make it so Sunshine's only available to unlock their potential in Prox, so that I don't have a team running around with the best possible gear until the endgame. All I had to do was edit the items gained from certain rusty weapons to have top-tier stats, new names, new traits, etc.

My only real questions are the bolded ones, I'm good with the rest.
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« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2015, 04:45:32 AM »

So, first question.  You know all the low-to-mid tier forgable items?  You know, the stuff from the Tear Stone and the Slyph Feather and what not?  What are you going to do about those?  While focusing on late game is great and all, it does kind of leave the mid-game barren if we suddenly lose access to it.
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« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2015, 05:16:34 AM »

So, first question.  You know all the low-to-mid tier forgable items?  You know, the stuff from the Tear Stone and the Slyph Feather and what not?  What are you going to do about those?  While focusing on late game is great and all, it does kind of leave the mid-game barren if we suddenly lose access to it.
I know I barely ever use forged items in-game whenever I play TLA and do just fine (even for endgame!). Regardless, I'm replacing all forge items that aren't Orihalcon or Dark Matter with more stat-boosting items, and making mid-tier forge items droppable or buyable.

I really don't mean to be rude, but I've thought this all through very much, and am really only looking for help in the bolded areas. I mean, look:

tinyurl.com/gstfa-psynergy
tinyurl.com/gstfa-monoclasses
tinyurl.com/gstfa-dualclassesfelix
tinyurl.com/gstfa-dualclassesclassic
tinyurl.com/gstfa-tripleclasses
tinyurl.com/gstfa-itemclasses

All of the above are just the changes I've made to psynergy and classes (I've updated as I made them to help out new players). This isn't something I'm doing on a whim, and as you can see, I'm super into minute details, even in my spreadsheets. I've got details down! Or at least I'd be thrilled to go over them after the game's draft is complete! But I know what I want, and what I want is Sunshine in Prox. I just need to figure out how to do it, and y'all are generally way smarter than me at that.

(I want to be clear, I'm totally for hearing criticism about this game, but I'd rather save it until my priority isn't finishing the game. Otherwise it's just too nebulous!)
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 05:35:51 AM by kamikazetomato » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2015, 10:05:09 AM »

Have you looked at these?

http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=1014.0

http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=2002.msg36441#msg36441

In changing the order of the events in the game, I think the biggest challenge you face is to make it so you can find the new path through exploration, without risking having the player go through mainly familiar content (which many will agree kills interest). Lishy apparently planned to put notes throughout the game, which should work since it's something markedly different, meaning you know what to look for. Do you have something in mind for this?
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« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2015, 12:19:50 PM »

Yes, but I frankly can't make heads or tails of it. Hex is something that needs to be really spelled out to me, because otherwise it just stumps me, unfortunately.

Quote
In changing the order of the events in the game, I think the biggest challenge you face is to make it so you can find the new path through exploration, without risking having the player go through mainly familiar content (which many will agree kills interest). Lishy apparently planned to put notes throughout the game, which should work since it's something markedly different, meaning you know what to look for. Do you have something in mind for this?
All planned. Dialogue is being rewritten throughout, and Lemuria particularly will lay out the basics for how the world should be explored.

I'm revamping this topic with the following post.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 12:21:42 PM by kamikazetomato » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2015, 01:51:52 PM »

NEW GAME PLAN FOLKS.

So I've hunkered down and given it some thought, and realized I can change quite a bit without hex editing. I've tested it out, and the theory works: I can drastically change the game by messing around with what Psynergy you get from items gathered in-game.

I already knew this from giving Briggs a new Lash-bestowing item, but I wanted to test it further, and lo and behold, I can do it! So I've made a few changes, and it's really cool! So, first off, new changes:

-Growth and Douse no longer have utility effects, and the new Growth Gem and Rain Drop bestow these abilities. The attack psynergy is still usable by classes, as is Whirlwind (which has already lost its utility; the Gale Coin grants said utility). Trickery is involved: Growth, Douse, and Whirlwind all actually have their utility, but the classes that have these abilities actually have a different attack with identical animation and such that they learn in level up. None's the wiser!

-Sheba now inherently knows Cyclone (haven't tested this yet, if it doesn't work, I'll just give the party the Cyclone Chip somewhere down the line, it won't be too hard).

With that in mind, here's the new order for the game:

-Instead of the Cyclone Chip, the mayor gives you the Burst Brooch. This allows you to break the rock at Briggs's escape ship early (as well as go to Tundaria Tower and get Psynergy Ore, which has replaced the Center Prong; more on this later!). The ability to fix the ship is stated in conversation with the mayor, so player explicitly has a goal to achieve.

-Using Burst to break the rock (before or after getting the ship), Briggs taunts you and in doing so, explicitly mentions his grandmother's Trident. Upon gaining the ship, Piers also mentions the Trident as a means to stop Lemuria's guardian, Poseidon. So, through dialogue, we know that Champa is the place to go if we want to get to Lemuria! Moreover, as you have no access to Whirlwind utility or Douse utility, none of the Rocks are open, so there's really nowhere else to go besides sidequest towns (and even the Taopo Swamp needs psynergy you don't have!)

-In Champa, we fight Avimander, who drops the Trident! Obaba mentions its use in case the player missed the drop. Now we have the Trident, and dialogue tells us to go to Lemuria! If you speak to Obaba afterwards, she'll take that Psynergy Ore from Tundaria Tower right off your hands (if you have it) and mention that two more kinds of ore would let her craft a Lifting Gem!

-Enter Lemuria. There, a TON of the dialogue is replaced to speak of the four Rocks, which have greater plot importance to this game. Ancient Lemurians left the Grindstone with the Garoh tribe, and instead of giving you the Grindstone, give you the Gale Coin. Worried about escaping Lemuria? Fear not, for Jenna has Teleport in this game for convenience anyway (this has already been thoroughly tested, and cannot be used to sequence break to the Western Sea early; all it does is get you killed in megadungeons early).

-With the Gale Coin, we can finally complete Air's Rock and get Reveal! We can also go to the Kandorean Temple finally and get a fun bonus prize that's replaced the Lash Pebble, if you can survive the super-powered Chestbeaters (note: I removed the early rope to cheat, given you already have Lash; it freezes the game to take the prize without Poi in the room, so this saves you!)

-With Reveal, we can explore Garoh and get the Grindstone (it's where the chest from Lash is, accessible only after the werewolf sidequest is done; never fear, dialogue will tell you where it is!). Also, the Shrine of the Sea God reveals another ore for the Lifting Gem if you wish.

-With the Grindstone, off to the Western Sea! Proceed normally through Jupiter Lighthouse.

-Isaac and company are back! Yay! But oh no, their Lifting Gem is now the Rain Drop! The Douse Drop, if in game, is replaced by a bonus item that isn't required. No Lift means no Magma Rock, but dialogue (as well as old talk from Lemuria) suggests Aqua Rock.

-Aqua Rock gets you Parch. Parch lets you go up Tundaria Tower. At the top, the Burst Brooch (which you already have!) is replaced with the Growth Gem!

-With the Growth Gem, we can finally go through Gaia Rock. Note: Growth might not actually be required to go through Gaia Rock; those with a guide can thus cheat the system. See bottom for further details.

-With Sand, the Ankohl Ruins open up. Go on through! At the top, we finally get the last ore for the Lifting Gem to be completed! Magma Rock (and Treasure Isle) are finally open for business!

-Proceed normally for rest of game, having successfully played way more with Team Isaac.

----------

Now, there are still a few snags that need clearing up. The most major is this:



This room right here requires Rain (that is, Douse), to fill a column with water and unlock the door. If I could get some help reworking the exit from Aqua Hydra's room to link to the entrance to the main engine, thus bypassing this room (and the ridiculous cave that somehow fits in the boat), I would be incredibly grateful. This problem is my number one priority.

The second big one is Gaia Rock:

As stated, I'm not sure that Growth is actually required to beat Gaia Rock's internal maze. I'm gonna test it, but if anyone know off-hand, I'd love to know. I'll work on this if Growth is technically not required, but I think between intense enemies and the requirement of a guide to really get through, it's not the BIGGEST deal, even if it lets you sequence break. Still, really hope Growth is actually needed, and if not, anyone who can help me hex in a Growth puzzle at the beginning of the outside of Gaia Rock (that is, add a vine that must be climbed) would earn so many brownie points it'd be unreal.

Smaller issue, but ones I still want to see fixed:

-I want Sunshine's lovely home



to lead to a house in Prox. I can rewrite script both in the village and in the house to mention Sunshine has moved to Prox. Then, I want a house in Prox to lead to the inside of Sunshine's house



essentially "moving him" to Prox. Thus, the smith only exists in the endgame, which is great, because those rusty weapons? Eight of them are actually Ultimate Weapons in disguise! As mentioned earlier in this topic, I've got basics covered on the rest of forging.

I will rename Sunshine after whoever helps me most with this.


Honestly, apart from some very minor further issues, that's all I foresee needing to make this sequence change work (I just really hope the game doesn't freak out when Isaac's party is with you for events out of order, such as the Gaia Rock storyline). We're so close, people! Let's get this big fat TLA remix out there!
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 02:31:04 PM by kamikazetomato » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2015, 02:39:00 PM »

Yes, but I frankly can't make heads or tails of it. Hex is something that needs to be really spelled out to me, because otherwise it just stumps me, unfortunately.
Post the things you get stuck at and I'll try explaining best as I can, I'm sure others may be willing to help too.

Quote
Quote
In changing the order of the events in the game, I think the biggest challenge you face is to make it so you can find the new path through exploration, without risking having the player go through mainly familiar content (which many will agree kills interest). Lishy apparently planned to put notes throughout the game, which should work since it's something markedly different, meaning you know what to look for. Do you have something in mind for this?
All planned. Dialogue is being rewritten throughout, and Lemuria particularly will lay out the basics for how the world should be explored.
Sounds good.

-Growth and Douse no longer have utility effects, and the new Growth Gem and Rain Drop bestow these abilities. The attack psynergy is still usable by classes, as is Whirlwind (which has already lost its utility; the Gale Coin grants said utility). Trickery is involved: Growth, Douse, and Whirlwind all actually have their utility, but the classes that have these abilities actually have a different attack with identical animation and such that they learn in level up. None's the wiser!
Based on the recently posted room scripting guide, if you remove the utility effect on the original ability, that effect won't work for other abilities. So what you'd have to do would be make new abilities without the utility and replace growth, whirlwind, etc. with those in the class learnsets, while you take away the battle effect from the original abilities and use those for out-of-battle effects only.
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« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2015, 02:50:09 PM »

Yes, but I frankly can't make heads or tails of it. Hex is something that needs to be really spelled out to me, because otherwise it just stumps me, unfortunately.
Post the things you get stuck at and I'll try explaining best as I can, I'm sure others may be willing to help too.

Honestly I'm utterly clueless, but I'll try to grasp it again after some sleep and get back to you.

Quote
-Growth and Douse no longer have utility effects, and the new Growth Gem and Rain Drop bestow these abilities. The attack psynergy is still usable by classes, as is Whirlwind (which has already lost its utility; the Gale Coin grants said utility). Trickery is involved: Growth, Douse, and Whirlwind all actually have their utility, but the classes that have these abilities actually have a different attack with identical animation and such that they learn in level up. None's the wiser!
Based on the recently posted room scripting guide, if you remove the utility effect on the original ability, that effect won't work for other abilities. So what you'd have to do would be make new abilities without the utility and replace growth, whirlwind, etc. with those in the class learnsets, while you take away the battle effect from the original abilities and use those for out-of-battle effects only.

I found the same thing through testing, and that's what I've done! For instance, Felix still learns Growth, and it looks just like Growth, but it's not the same spell as in slot #9, that is, "Growth Classic." Growth Classic remains with its utility.

I've found through testing that things can actually get sorta messed up when you take away battle effects. It's totally inconsistent and I don't know why, but to be safe I add a third tier to the nonsense; I not only add Felix's fake Growth with no utility, but a new ability that casts Growth's utility that ONLY does utility. And Growth classic just sorta sits there. Such is the way of Golden Sun 2.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 02:51:44 PM by kamikazetomato » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2015, 04:45:27 PM »

Quote
Honestly I'm utterly clueless, but I'll try to grasp it again after some sleep and get back to you.

Well... I know the feeling. I totally do.
When you're reading, there are probably parts like "I don't know what this means" or "I don't know what this refers to" or "how am I supposed to know this?"
If you can identify those parts, you can ask yourself what they mean. And even if you can't reason it out, defining a question makes it easier to get an explanation from others.

Quote
I've found through testing that things can actually get sorta messed up when you take away battle effects. It's totally inconsistent and I don't know why, but to be safe I add a third tier to the nonsense; I not only add Felix's fake Growth with no utility, but a new ability that casts Growth's utility that ONLY does utility. And Growth classic just sorta sits there. Such is the way of Golden Sun 2.

lol, this makes a surprising amount of sense to me
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« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2015, 08:44:43 PM »

Gaia rock is "random" based on your name. If you use the same name for felix in any two playthroughs, the path will be identical. It is fully possible to get through gaia rock without use of growth.
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Spoiler for quotes:
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O
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« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2015, 10:16:26 PM »

Pretty much what leaf said, yeah. You might be able to get around it by adding a Growth vine on the exterior portion of the dungeon, although this wouldn't make the spell itself mandatory for dungeon completion unless the Serpent's HP recovery is still high.

As for your Lemurian Ship and Yallam exit stuff, this might provide some insight on what/how to manage this. I can also take a look later if this doesn't help much, but I'm probably going to be busy for a couple days and may not get around to it right away.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 11:34:17 PM by Lord Squirtle » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2015, 04:07:53 AM »

Gaia rock is "random" based on your name. If you use the same name for felix in any two playthroughs, the path will be identical. It is fully possible to get through gaia rock without use of growth.
That's how it works?  Kind of underwhelming...
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« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2015, 12:55:21 PM »

So I've scoured the entry/exit topic and understand basically none of it. But I'll try to walk through what exactly I don't know and what exactly I want.

First, here's what I want:



I want the two circled pathways to link together. Problem is, on top of not understanding anything about entry/exit paths, the two locations are on the same map, REM_FUNE02 (#41 on the list of maps). Further complicating matters is this:



Son of a gun, this map looks just like the one on top! It's got water in it, implying it's the map you get when Aqua Hydra is killed, but it also has a few jellies hanging out and not giving a single damn about their melted friends. So:

-The guide on entrance/exit coding makes no sense to me,

-Even if it did, my entrance/exit are on the same map, so I have no idea if that even works, and finally

-Even if it would work, I don't know which map to make the exit from.


Such is my dilemma.

A solution that might be simpler would be removing this door:



Because even though it means keeping that weird cave-in-boat, at least it would mean I could start the darned thing without Douse utility, which is all I really want to do here (Piers doesn't have Douse utility so that Aqua Rock can't be done until Isaac's party comes to town).

I've really bashed my head into this hex editing thing, including looking at other online sources about hex in general, but I am just clueless here. I really, really, really need help, and unfortunately need to be handheld like a child if this is going to get done.

So here's my proposal. In this game, Conservato is actually a heroic figure, as Lemuria is the fulcrum of the game and everyone in it is basically giving you a guide for the rest of your adventure. Why do I bring this up? Because I'm changing Conservato's ridiculous name, and I will name him after whoever helps me fix this problem the most.

(King Hydros is already being renamed King Caledor for the psynergy multiplier patch)
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 01:16:59 PM by kamikazetomato » Logged
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