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Author Topic: What happen's to the elemental stars: and are the lighthouses pointless?  (Read 6441 times)
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zman9000
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« on: January 10, 2016, 11:27:59 PM »

So I was doing some math trying to figure out one of the maps for my Minecraft golden sun project, and i noticed something odd about the Jupiter lighthouse.

Its hard to explain, but basically i noticed a clear path the elemental star travels when thrown into the lighthouse. and while the level of detail put into this map is amazing for it to align 'perfectly'... :( its where the Jupiter star ends up that got me wondering. take a look at this picture showing the path the star takes.

Spoiler for Hidden:

As you can see it ends up going into an endless pit of sorts in the basement floor of the lighthouse, and while that's interesting in its self and is worth discussing for lore and the like, the problem comes in when you realize... you pass this room before you even officially enter the lighthouse.

if the end goal is to chuck the elemental stars into the ground... why did we climb the lighthouses...
« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 11:30:39 PM by zman9000 » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2016, 01:08:28 AM »

maybe at the top of the lighthouse the "hole" is just a room for the star and not this seemingly bottomless pit. We have no real evidence that there's a clear path. What about the other lighthouses?
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« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2016, 06:44:04 AM »

Huh, that is pretty interesting. Why indeed would the party have to go to the top and throw the star in?

No other lighthouses don't have this.

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« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2016, 08:33:17 AM »

maybe at the top of the lighthouse the "hole" is just a room for the star and not this seemingly bottomless pit. We have no real evidence that there's a clear path. What about the other lighthouses?
But there's a beam of light coming from down there that activates after you light the lighthouse... I really don't think it would be coming from the top, that seems so odd.

I got no idea, seems like just an oversight to me. A pretty colossal one if you think about the implications. From what's indicated by the game (and this is just my interpretation of it), the elemental star floats towards its position at the top of the lighthouse where power flows into it from the earth and is released into the world (through the large sphere at the top, which would have the elemental star at the center). But there's explanation for why it would have to be activated from the top.

...wait, I have an idea actually. Or a theory. The path is not for the star to fall through, it's for the beam of elemental energy or whatever it is. The star never goes through the lighthouse, it's just waiting there at the top in some space reserved for it. And when it gets through that opening at the top (which would be acting as some sort of sensor), that acts as the trigger that activates the lighthouse.

Now as for why other lighthouse don't have this then... perhaps they do, but it's out of our sight. Perhaps the energy flows to the top by some other means integrated in the structure. Oh well, good enough for me.

EDIT: Nevermind, I'm being dumb again. That path has something to do with Jupiter Lighthouse specifically and how its mechanisms are powered, the beam activates before you put in the star. There's no reason to assume the star goes through that path. Case closed.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2016, 08:51:19 AM by Misery » Logged
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« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2016, 09:11:24 PM »

So apparently no one believes me that that's the path it takes.

While is possible my math is off by one or two tiles, that still isn't enough change the fact that this tunnel from top to bottom filled with important things to climbing the lighthouse with nothing really in the way (that we can see), its too big a coincidence in game design. not to mention most maps in golden sun I've noticed have a strange level of detail in certain places.

For arguments sake can we talk about it with the idea that it does align up perfectly in mind?
I'm not planning on building the actual lighthouse until minecraft 1.9 comes out so i can use the purple gem blocks that come in that update. so you will have a 3d visual representation at some point so for now, just go with what i'm claiming.



you guys do make some interesting points that other people off the site have also made to me. maybe it doesn't go all the way down and thats just the area for the energy to travel. however there is also the device on floor 5 that you activate with hover that is interesting. while at first it looks like its in the way of my so called path with maybe a one tile opening, i should remind you that when you use hover it looks like it sorta... opens up a little.

we know that at the top the lighthouse has a plug, so maybe there is a few things keeping you from lighting the lighthouse?

My thought was throwing the elemental stars down into the ground to put back the elemental power back into the earth/ground so it can fill the world. however the lighthouses take that energy and funnel it into an orb at the top and when all 4 are lit shoot it off to the mountain to form the golden sun...

but that seems like a weird way to do it, and from a game design way that's a normal kinda thing, but how it works seems odd, and from dark dawn there seems to be issues. (the golden sun being to powerful to even get close, and the black holes that are trying to eat all the energy)

why the energy needs to come from the ground is a good question...
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« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2016, 11:35:30 PM »

It could be possible the long tower was constructed to extract the star in the first place, and that there might be a reason you have to drop it from the top - perhaps there's some alignment requirements that need to happen so that the star doesn't get stuck during extraction/reinsertion, and that's why the lighthouses take the form of lighthouses at all - they need that height/altitude for the alchemy machine to do its job without interference.  I mean, if you just chucked it in at the bottom, who's to say it wouldn't get stuck in some crack?  Perhaps there's some guidance methods in place for when you need to re-insert it.
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« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2016, 02:55:09 AM »

another thing i was thinking about...
while they clearly made it an option, did they want alchemy to be returned someday when they sealed it? like they clearly did since they kept the elemental stars... like if they didn't want to they could have just chucked them off the edge of the world. unless that too would have returned alchemy to the world.

The other thing is, if the stars are going down into the world, what are they doing?
like if you just leave the star on the ground too long would the power leak out of it? is that what the strange bags are for?
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« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2016, 08:23:22 AM »

It's weird, yeah. I thought that the mythril bags were to protect the holder from prolonged exposure, but iirc isaac carries the mars star barehanded for most of GS1. Of course, it could be that it was safe for him to do so because the wise one imbued him with some of the mars star's power when he retrieved the star.

...Or something like that. We'll never get a true answer, but it can be fun to speculate.
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Spoiler for quotes:
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
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« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2016, 05:24:04 PM »

It's weird, yeah. I thought that the mythril bags were to protect the holder from prolonged exposure, but iirc isaac carries the mars star barehanded for most of GS1. Of course, it could be that it was safe for him to do so because the wise one imbued him with some of the mars star's power when he retrieved the star.

...Or something like that. We'll never get a true answer, but it can be fun to speculate.

Didn't the Wise One take some power of the star just to be able to prevent an all-out eruption?

Quote from: zman
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So apparently no one believes me that that's the path it takes.

you guys do make some interesting points that other people off the site have also made to me. maybe it doesn't go all the way down and thats just the area for the energy to travel. however there is also the device on floor 5 that you activate with hover that is interesting. while at first it looks like its in the way of my so called path with maybe a one tile opening, i should remind you that when you use hover it looks like it sorta... opens up a little.

why the energy needs to come from the ground is a good question...
I sorta believe you.

What is the deal with this device? Could you explain?

Well this topic comes quite close to: where do the stars even come from?
Were they already there when the world was created? Or were they produced by sealing alchemy?
We don't even know if alchemy was just everywere, or more focused in one area.

I actually like the theory that the stars were just part of the rocks of Weyard. And that the lighthouses 're-insert' the stars into the ground.
The only thing I don't like about it, is that it is very Earth-based. By which I mean, why would the elemental star of jupiter be stuck in the ground?

Funny to note is that we also have the Rocks (aqua rock etc.), that could be connected to the stars somehow.
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« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2016, 11:34:00 PM »

i reviewed the maps. the jupiter lighthouse is the only one with this sorta detail.
the only one with a clear path to the bottom. even more so, the mars lighthouse doesn't even have a possible path into the ground from the top because of how many bit rooms it has on the first floor, there isn't a space, in view or behind a wall where even the smallest path down would fit.

now at first i thought it was a total dead end but... then i read this.
Quote
The only thing I don't like about it, is that it is very Earth-based. By which I mean, why would the elemental star of jupiter be stuck in the ground?
that is weird, if not for the fact that Jupiter is the opposite element from earth.
could have some meaning.

from there I've been wondering if there is any other differences in the other lighthouses that hint to the opposite element. and there is. mars lighthouse is filled with ice.

though that's as far as i got. need to look into other ideas related to that though.

another weird thing is jupiter is the only lighthouse you don't teleport to the top.
and its weird because teleport, is a jupiter based psynergy, however its found in the mars lighthouse and used to get to the top. and even weirder is that mars is the only element that doesn't have a teleport psynergy. earth has Retreat, jupiter has Teleport, and mercury has the Warp that alex shows. (i may have gone of track so i'll get back to it)

you may be wondering why i'm bringing this up. well while there isn't a clear spot for the stars to fall on the other lighthouses. just like jupiter, the location that most looks like it would have a path down, relative to its position in the lighthouse, in all 4 lighthouses have important objects or devices along that path on the way down. in mars the thing in that spot is the first teleport pad you run into in the lighthouse, and above that is the fire-dragon fight. In mercury lighthouse its the statue you use ply on so you get the ability to walk on water. and in the venus lighthouse its the pannel on the floor that has a tree on it and looks sorta like a trap door.

all of these things are in roughly the correct place, and the ones that do have things right above them have them line up perfectly.

so here't my list of the path the stars take, though the ones not jupiter are more guess work cause i haven't done the math and counted the tiles yet.

jupiter: top of the lighthouse, device you activate with hover that turns on hover pads, spinny beam that takes you up a few floors in the central room, hole in the basement.

venus: top of the lighthouse, many many trapdoors with trees on them.

mercury: top of the lighthouse, the path you fall down to land on the statue you use ply on, the statue you use ply on.

mars: top of the lighthouse, twin fire dragon fight, teleport pad room.

for the others i may be looking too hard, but for venus, having looked into this i remembered thinking about this when i first played the game and was climbing the venus lighthouse. i wondered why the tree pannels only showed up so much and only in places right above each other, with them all directly in the center of the lighthouse and the first thing you see when you enter.
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« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2016, 06:40:04 AM »

from there I've been wondering if there is any other differences in the other lighthouses that hint to the opposite element. and there is. mars lighthouse is filled with ice.
Yeah, that is pretty weird as well. Mercury has the destroyed bits, but that was caused by Saturos and Menardi, wasn't it?
another weird thing is jupiter is the only lighthouse you don't teleport to the top.
and its weird because teleport, is a jupiter based psynergy, however its found in the mars lighthouse and used to get to the top. and even weirder is that mars is the only element that doesn't have a teleport psynergy. earth has Retreat, jupiter has Teleport, and mercury has the Warp that alex shows. (i may have gone of track so i'll get back to it)
I think the teleport problem has been discussed before and I think Mars has a teleport based-psyenergy, but we don't see it in-game.
so here't my list of the path the stars take, though the ones not jupiter are more guess work cause i haven't done the math and counted the tiles yet.

jupiter: top of the lighthouse, device you activate with hover that turns on hover pads, spinny beam that takes you up a few floors in the central room, hole in the basement.

venus: top of the lighthouse, many many trapdoors with trees on them.

mercury: top of the lighthouse, the path you fall down to land on the statue you use ply on, the statue you use ply on.

mars: top of the lighthouse, twin fire dragon fight, teleport pad room.
Yeah, every lighthouse has it's thing.
I always forget the Venus lighthouse has two parts and the first part always struck me as puzzling and not venus-like.
I mean, you have to use Reveal in order to progress.
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« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2016, 12:16:05 PM »

yep you need a jupiter only power to... climb the... lighthouse...

wait... if i'm looking at this right... there are only two places, or one room in all of jupiter lighthouse that you even have to use a jupiter only psynergy... and its only the access to the side paths that unseal the top of the lighthouse...

if that cap wasn't on the top they wouldn't have even needed a jupiter adapt like they said in the first game...
i'm also having a hard time believing that if they could blast apart the mercury lighthouse, then surly they could have blasted that cap off the jupiter lighthouse.
really they didn't even need a jupiter adapt...

so even if just dumping the star off at the bottom didn't work, they still could have easily done the lighthouse without the required adapt...
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« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2016, 12:55:12 PM »

Wasn't the adept of that element needed anyway just to enter the lighthouse? As in just going past the front door?
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« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2016, 07:49:53 PM »

Good point about Jupiter not needing a Jupiter adept...
Also? Was each lighthouse needing its respective adept ever stated as fact? (Either b/c NPCs really did try to enter Jupiter already... or otherwise.) My guess is that it's possible that they /thought/ Jupiter needed its respective adept do to their adventures in Mercury and Venus Lighthouses.

However, needing them to get through the front door is also something that might be worth looking into... Although, I'm not sure how Karst/Agatio/Alex got in if none of them are Jupiter? (Unless Isaac's team was tricked into letting them "in" somehow... - But since Mercury Lighthouse, I think they'd know Alex wants to light the lighthouses, so in that case, he'd surely have to be stealthy/travel alone.)
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« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2016, 05:13:43 AM »

Huh, good question... how *did* agatio, karst, and alex manage to get into JLH?
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[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
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