Golden Sun Hacking Community
January 19, 2018, 05:40:34 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
  Home   Forum   DC Wiki Help Search Calendar Downloads Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Lemuria Fountain is weird  (Read 1786 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Regular Member
**

Coins: 2
Offline Offline

Posts: 135

« on: December 19, 2016, 02:36:46 AM »

Can anyone explain this?
https://youtu.be/YrxQEaDx2uc

Two save states, same RN value, identical files. Exit/enter fountain and tossing medal yields different results. Despite everything being aligned otherwise.

The only thing that I can think of is the positioning of people outside of the fountain leads to inconsistent results... but as I mentioned both save states were generated from the same save file so I'm really confused.

This also happens on console for reference.

Update for more information:
What I'm doing here is clearing the title screen within a 0.1s window (~6frames) to get amongst a set of known seeds. I toss two lucky medals to work out what seed I'm on. Then advance the RNG using the nurse cap/save game to a particular RNG value. Then I use pound (which gets me to the RNG value seen in the video), exit/enter and that should give me the wild coat. But obviously I'm getting either the wild coat OR the crafted gloves.

It's 100% the exit/enter that is causing the discrepancy. Throwing another medal without exit/enter gives the same result from tossing the medal.

I gathered some data, and it might be that the original RNG seed plays a role somehow? Perhaps in distributing random movement NPCs in Lemuria? I'm not sure. I did get Wild Coat off my Fireman Pole/Potion seed and then Crafted Gloves off of Water of Life/Potion seed consistently (as far as I can tell) but it's a hard thing to test rigorously.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2016, 03:28:09 AM by Plexa » Logged
View Profile
Fox
Fox McCloud, the Hacking Doctor
Mercury Clan

Prodigy
*

Coins: 28
Offline Offline

I am: certainly not a Gallant!
Clan Position: Head Gallant
Posts: 2403

« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2016, 04:38:46 AM »

Interesting... I just want to make 100% sure before looking, but both save files have not obtained any items from the spring previously, correct? (Most likely...)
I'm asking because when you get an item, it becomes rarer until it gets to its rarest point. As explained in this topic: http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=2574.0

If the 15 bytes at 0200037D are 100% the same in both files, then this is definitely worth looking into! Thanks!
« Last Edit: December 19, 2016, 04:42:15 AM by Fox » Logged

Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...

Remember kids! Before you go on that interview, remember to wash your hands in teawater! *Coughs on hand* (Excuse me, I just coughed up a little teawater, so they're still clean!) You wouldn't want that hiring manager to be unimpressed.

May the force be with you!
Shoo! Why does it smell in here?
Maybe that's the wrong kind of force. *smirk*
View Profile

Regular Member
**

Coins: 2
Offline Offline

Posts: 135

« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2016, 04:46:11 AM »

The bytes are different; so at least there is something traceable for me to look at.

Still, without exit/enter the items obtained are identical which is really weird.

EDIT: Looking at that other thread, looks like instead of the Wild Coat I'm getting the item immediately before it in the stack (crafted gloves). This is absolutely what is going on. Now to work out a way of not letting this mess me up :D thanks Fox - once again you save the day.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2016, 04:50:31 AM by Plexa » Logged
View Profile
Fox
Fox McCloud, the Hacking Doctor
Mercury Clan

Prodigy
*

Coins: 28
Offline Offline

I am: certainly not a Gallant!
Clan Position: Head Gallant
Posts: 2403

« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2016, 06:04:14 AM »

Cool. Sounds good. :)

You are welcome.

Oh, and there was one tiny little thing I couldn't figure out... "...in hopes that either ??? or golden sun hacking Fox Teawater..."
« Last Edit: December 19, 2016, 06:14:52 AM by Fox » Logged

Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...

Remember kids! Before you go on that interview, remember to wash your hands in teawater! *Coughs on hand* (Excuse me, I just coughed up a little teawater, so they're still clean!) You wouldn't want that hiring manager to be unimpressed.

May the force be with you!
Shoo! Why does it smell in here?
Maybe that's the wrong kind of force. *smirk*
View Profile

Regular Member
**

Coins: 2
Offline Offline

Posts: 135

« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2016, 07:02:21 AM »

Zetonegi :) https://twitter.com/ZetoNegi

He's done a ton of miracle stuff for GS2 (e.g. BRN manipulations for Serpent/Poseidon which involve using weaken/sour)
« Last Edit: December 19, 2016, 07:07:27 AM by Plexa » Logged
View Profile
Fox
Fox McCloud, the Hacking Doctor
Mercury Clan

Prodigy
*

Coins: 28
Offline Offline

I am: certainly not a Gallant!
Clan Position: Head Gallant
Posts: 2403

« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2016, 07:56:47 AM »

Oh, I see now. No wonder I couldn't make it out.
So he's the guy speed running the (J) game. Seems like it, yes....
Speaking of twitter *I checks to see what smea's doing on there.*
« Last Edit: December 19, 2016, 08:49:57 AM by Fox » Logged

Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...

Remember kids! Before you go on that interview, remember to wash your hands in teawater! *Coughs on hand* (Excuse me, I just coughed up a little teawater, so they're still clean!) You wouldn't want that hiring manager to be unimpressed.

May the force be with you!
Shoo! Why does it smell in here?
Maybe that's the wrong kind of force. *smirk*
View Profile

Regular Member
**

Coins: 2
Offline Offline

Posts: 135

« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2016, 09:16:42 AM »

Yeah he does both versions. But he's been really focused on jp lately because it can be RNG manipulated the same way GS1 can (using the sleep mode function to have controlled RNG advance during the press start screen).
Logged
View Profile
Fox
Fox McCloud, the Hacking Doctor
Mercury Clan

Prodigy
*

Coins: 28
Offline Offline

I am: certainly not a Gallant!
Clan Position: Head Gallant
Posts: 2403

« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2016, 10:27:32 AM »

That sounds cool. So how much time (potentially) did the ability of RNG manupulation save? (Game Time wise.) ...

Hmmm....
Quote
Zetonegi ‏@ZetoNegi May 21

One thing that only @TLPlexa might know the answer to is how the merc dinn in prox is determined, cause spritz is better than dew/mist
Hmm? That is certainly interesting. I'm guessing you already figured it out? (Or no?) ... It seems to be using argument r2=0x13 (Being the djinn of an element.) (So that's why we have djinn placeholders?)
For those four special djinn only (Ones using r2=0x13), the djinn you get, seem to be at 02002950? (1 byte per element.) Seems to be set on Party Reunion. (Tested by going to Shop Test:99) So your 99% is now a 100%?
It seems to be a random chance of the remaining GS1 djinn that you do not have. Using the GRN.

So...
-List all GS1 djinn / element that you don't have into a list...
-Randomly grab one from that list and store to 0x02002950 data.

I'm not sure if you would have a good application for that or not.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2016, 12:18:44 PM by Fox » Logged

Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...

Remember kids! Before you go on that interview, remember to wash your hands in teawater! *Coughs on hand* (Excuse me, I just coughed up a little teawater, so they're still clean!) You wouldn't want that hiring manager to be unimpressed.

May the force be with you!
Shoo! Why does it smell in here?
Maybe that's the wrong kind of force. *smirk*
View Profile

Regular Member
**

Coins: 2
Offline Offline

Posts: 135

« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2016, 07:13:43 PM »

I'm not totally sure how much time it saves, in GS1 you can flee from every encounter taking (almost) only mandatory battles up to Venus lighthouse (where it becomes impossible to run in one turn). TLA you hit the problem of not being able to run much earlier so you have to manipulate fights for experience and whatnot. Still, I'd be surprised if it didn't have 30 minutes (+ Japanese text is faster so that always helps).

We did work out how the mercury djinn in prox is determined; its simply based off the RNG after the reunion cutscene as you point out. The problem is controlling the RNG through the reunion cutscene which is hard because its such a long cutscene and there are yen/no boxes to clear.

Instead of going for RNG djinn we just manipulate them at the start of the game. The old strat was using 11 Felix Cancels (clearing Felix's name 11 times when starting a new file) which didn't give Spritz. Zetonegi found a seed which has all the djinn he wants after 44 Felix Cancels. I found a seed suitable for what I want to do by cancelling Isaacs name twice, felix once, then isaac again. 
Logged
View Profile
leaf
Potions class is starting
Venus Clan

Death Eater+Grass Snake = Snake Eater? SNAAAAAAAKE

Veteran Member
*

Coins: 10
Offline Offline

Posts: 1320

« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2016, 08:50:25 PM »

44 felix cancels... that's some dedication right there.

Imagine getting through the entire game up to the reunion when you realize "Oh whoops, I did 45 by accident."

Logged

Spoiler for quotes:
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O
View Profile
Fox
Fox McCloud, the Hacking Doctor
Mercury Clan

Prodigy
*

Coins: 28
Offline Offline

I am: certainly not a Gallant!
Clan Position: Head Gallant
Posts: 2403

« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2016, 10:02:26 PM »

@44/45 = Yes, that is definitely a valid point... which raises the question on whether 44 should be optimized down to a smaller number to avoid room for error.

So next question is... can you still properly do the same speedrun without actually seeing the RNG numbers? With the goal of minimizing need to remember stuff/seeing whatever is not already in the game. )

Not sure if these would help any, but I mean ideas like: (For GRN...)
-One could look at NPC movement for cues.
-One could maybe use music for timing, etc.

..assuming that when you have a low or high number, getting the other number would be more likely. (Not sure, though.)
« Last Edit: December 19, 2016, 10:39:31 PM by Fox » Logged

Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...

Remember kids! Before you go on that interview, remember to wash your hands in teawater! *Coughs on hand* (Excuse me, I just coughed up a little teawater, so they're still clean!) You wouldn't want that hiring manager to be unimpressed.

May the force be with you!
Shoo! Why does it smell in here?
Maybe that's the wrong kind of force. *smirk*
View Profile
leaf
Potions class is starting
Venus Clan

Death Eater+Grass Snake = Snake Eater? SNAAAAAAAKE

Veteran Member
*

Coins: 10
Offline Offline

Posts: 1320

« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2016, 10:48:50 PM »

@Fox: AFAIK, RNG abuse in golden sun largely comes down to simply quickly clearing the title screen with precise timing. After that, most RNG manipulations come down to battle events or using a field psynergy a certain number of times. Towns are extremely difficult to reliably manipulate the RNG in, since it consumes RNs for the NPC movement, resulting in extremely erratic random numbers.
Logged

Spoiler for quotes:
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O
View Profile
Fox
Fox McCloud, the Hacking Doctor
Mercury Clan

Prodigy
*

Coins: 28
Offline Offline

I am: certainly not a Gallant!
Clan Position: Head Gallant
Posts: 2403

« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2016, 12:00:33 AM »

Well, doesn't it take time to Save and Reset, though? So if we could figure out any tricks that aren't obvious, then one could potentially reduce the number of resets. (Probably, but I don't know how many resets are even in a single speed-run.) But that is only theorectical. I think random numbers from NPC movement are periodical... (I'm assuming they're not being generated until they actually move, right?  But I haven't checked this much.... So might need to make sure.)

Any moment where it stops for a short bit, makes me wonder.... (I looked at Contigo.)

1, 2, 3, short pause, 1, 2, 3, short pause, etc. at the entrance... so it may depend on where you are.
Even in front of the house where you get Isaac's party... there is some short pausing. But I think it is more 1,2,3,4, short pause, ... repeat. It can be a little hard to tell, though... but there are short pauses. A little too short for my liking. ... But I'd have to test some things to know if it matters or not. (Mainly though, this would only solve like... ~10% of the theory?)

If I can get from the entrance and through that door... and get the same random number every time = Then we would have abused the RNG... But whether it is useful and/or practical is another story.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 01:05:38 AM by Fox » Logged

Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...

Remember kids! Before you go on that interview, remember to wash your hands in teawater! *Coughs on hand* (Excuse me, I just coughed up a little teawater, so they're still clean!) You wouldn't want that hiring manager to be unimpressed.

May the force be with you!
Shoo! Why does it smell in here?
Maybe that's the wrong kind of force. *smirk*
View Profile

Regular Member
**

Coins: 2
Offline Offline

Posts: 135

« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2016, 01:32:22 AM »

re 44/45; I told Zeto about Isaac cancelling and how that can change the RNG in a different way to just Felix cancelling but he never listened to me xD my method gets all the important djinn but Jenna gets a worse agility roll than before (which is annoying but manageable).

With regard to RNG abuse, we can get pretty consistently within 0.1s on the title screen so that narrows things down to 6 frames to look for. For the fountain we traditionally throw a few coins to establish where the RNG is (2 usually suffices) and then work out a method from there - although I've been using the Nurse cap to advance the RNG until it breaks to work out where the RNG is (which is how the original question in this topic arose - in hind sight i should have advanced the rng before throwing coins lol). In Yallam we need to manipulate for the spirit ring. There's one sailor NPC between Sunshine and where you come from (either sanctum or entrance) and we read his movement to know how to manipulate for the spirit ring (although I'm not happy with this method, there's a lot of memorisation needed here and I'm sure there's a better way to do it but haven't quite worked that out yet).  

It's probably possible to manipulate Isaac's party djinn consistently, but its far easier to do it when you're creating a new file rather than in game.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 01:58:47 AM by Plexa » Logged
View Profile
Fox
Fox McCloud, the Hacking Doctor
Mercury Clan

Prodigy
*

Coins: 28
Offline Offline

I am: certainly not a Gallant!
Clan Position: Head Gallant
Posts: 2403

« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2016, 02:08:44 AM »

@1 = Okay, sounds cool... But that Agility roll, though? What would be the better option had you sacrificed a single djinni? (Or up to 2-4?) (Assuming the RNG is nice enough to you?  And assuming if there is a consistent way to generate those in-game djinn.)

I'd have to see exactly how wide those windows would be... given that it may be possible that consecutive numbers /could/ result in the same thing. (No idea, it depends.) I imagine it is basically a 1 in 2 or 1 in 3, depending on djinn distribution... so you never know... Those odds are neat when you consider a lot of other things that are [supposed to be] rarer.

@Memorization: How about an OCD-like "Walk this path to get to the door? " (Sort of... but that's only if you know where the RNG is at.) .. Hmm... Might work best if there's a wide enough window. (Like if multiple random numbers result in the same thing.)
« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 02:49:31 AM by Fox » Logged

Golden Sun Docs: Broken Seal - The Lost Age - Dark Dawn | Mario Sports Docs: Mario Golf & Mario Tennis | Misc. Docs
Refer to Yoshi's Lighthouse for any M&L hacking needs...

Remember kids! Before you go on that interview, remember to wash your hands in teawater! *Coughs on hand* (Excuse me, I just coughed up a little teawater, so they're still clean!) You wouldn't want that hiring manager to be unimpressed.

May the force be with you!
Shoo! Why does it smell in here?
Maybe that's the wrong kind of force. *smirk*
View Profile
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Cbox
January 17, 2018, 04:07:51 PM
KyleRunner: :D
January 16, 2018, 08:44:56 PM
Fox: I must say... life can be complicated..... when you have question(s) (via email) ... and it seems like they sort of get ignored. :D ; Fun, (And sometimes, a person may respond, and completely not answer the question.... so like... 3-person conversation.) Hahahaha!!
January 15, 2018, 07:26:16 PM
Fox: (path) 1 text=(address) char=(address) free=(address) ; << Well, closer to this... but yeah... even if I do choose to have defaults in the code, I could still use this method for overrides.
January 15, 2018, 07:24:28 PM
Fox: So like (path) 0 text=(address) char=(address) len=(number) ; (path) 1 free=(address) ; Or something. But that's just a quick example.
January 15, 2018, 06:59:14 PM
Fox: Hopefully. I was wanting to make it so you could put in the addresses/etc. as one of the arguments in the path. Hm?
January 15, 2018, 03:37:07 PM
KyleRunner: Nice! I hope you'll add compatibility with others games (GS1, Mario Golf and Tennis) soon.
January 14, 2018, 11:40:09 PM
Fox: Okay. Posted (in Downloads section) an initial cutdown version for now, for my text compressor. Basically to separate the code from my Editor for anyone who wants to mess with it. It only supports GS2, because I still didn't add the addresses/etc. for the other games.
January 14, 2018, 05:01:00 PM
Fox: Okay! Going to need to think how I want it to work. Initial thoughts is maybe have a number of arguments in the filepath thing. And have a number of shortcuts (files) to be used as examples. Assuming there are no problems.
January 14, 2018, 10:38:24 AM
KyleRunner: Well... I'm used to editing text ina a text editor, so... yes! Thanks in advance!
January 13, 2018, 11:38:43 PM
Fox: (Text editor = Text Document like notepad.)
January 13, 2018, 11:38:21 PM
Fox: Would you prefer during the text editing in a text editor? (Like what gstoolkit lets you do?) I could probably make a separate tool or something to compress it.
January 13, 2018, 10:10:02 PM
KyleRunner: Ok. Once I finish my Lost Age translation, I'll try a Mario Golf one. Thanks. (But I'll need help).
January 13, 2018, 10:03:17 PM
Fox: If you want to make it "permanent" (part of a hack), then you'd edit code in the ROM that writes to this location of the IDs you'd want to change. (You can find these locations by using a breakpoint debugger like SDL-H or no$gba.)
January 13, 2018, 10:00:11 PM
Fox: Reload/switch = Recommended to be done through Debug mode/warp menu, ofcourse... since doors seem to appear as if they were disabled? ; 03001238:01 and B+Start to get to warp menu.
January 13, 2018, 09:55:39 PM
Fox: @Kyle Runner = It might be, but you'd have to use the correct addresses for Mario Golf, rather than for GS2 as I have it right now. ; @raijinken = Yes. 02000454 = ID of leader. (Change this and reload/switch room you are in, enjoy.)
January 13, 2018, 02:23:29 PM
raijinken: Hey guys, is it possible to somehow change the lead character on the map? Was wondering. I remember there was a cheat to use Jenna, but what if I wanted Isaac, or Piers?
January 13, 2018, 02:10:03 PM
KyleRunner: Hey, Fox *
January 13, 2018, 02:09:37 PM
KyleRunner: Hey, is your text editor compatible with Mario Golf (GBA)?
January 11, 2018, 08:33:13 PM
Fox: But if it isn't an oversight, I still can't imagine it being that useful.
January 11, 2018, 08:28:24 PM
Fox: part, ofcourse.

Affiliates
Temple of Kraden Golden Sunrise
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.061 seconds with 22 queries.