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Author Topic: Three Ideas for Balancing Summons  (Read 12565 times)
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« Reply #20 on: 12, August, 2017, 06:47:32 PM »

Alright, so after some more days thinking about it, I think I've arrived at the following conclusions...

---------------------------------------------------------

1) Instead of "nerfing" things, I should probably be BUFFING other things whenever possible; like enemy stats, status ailments, and things like that.  For example, if, say, Fusion Dragon always starts the fight with an attack that instantly paralyzes someone (bypasses resistance and everything), that would already make "Flash + Granite/Ground" spamming way more dangerous.  For that reason, it would ultimately be counterproductive to increase Djinn Recovery times, inside or outside of battle.  

2) That said, I'd still like to slash the HP% multiplier on summons slightly.  I...don't have anywhere near the programming skills needed to do the whole "two healthbars" thing, and the multiplier slash accomplishes basically the same thing (even if it IS way less cool than what Breath of Fire 1 did Sad ...)

3) I still want to play around with the idea of giving summons strict PP costs; someone else mentioned the idea of making it so that high level summons couldn't be used in the opening turns.  Now, I can see the merit of that, and it WOULD remove the potential for abuse against randoms...but the thing is, that would only become relevant somewhere in the midgame.  You see, even the lower level summons (like Kirin, Nereid, and Atlanta) are really good.  They're generally stronger than the Psynergies you have by the time they're first available, they don't cost a cent of PP, and they hit WAY more enemies.  So they'd still put Attack Psynergies to shame in the early game (though that might work itself out by the endgame).

The only other way I can think of ensuring the viability of Attack Psynergies would be buffing them to ridiculous degrees; like slashing their PP costs by half, SIGNIFICANTLY increasing their power, increasing the range of most of them, and etc., etc.  And that seems like things would get a little silly if I attempted that Um...

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« Last Edit: 12, August, 2017, 06:52:23 PM by Fionordequester » Logged
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« Reply #21 on: 12, August, 2017, 07:44:06 PM »

Caledor is the one who implemented a system where you cannot use anything higher than tier 2(?) summons on the first turn of battle. Each turn, an additional tier would unlock.

I think your concern about the early game is misplaced, though. Even if someone were to spam tier 1 or 2 summons in normal battles, it's at a point of the game where it's arguably needed. In the early game, "attack" is not a valid way of doing damage. Tier 1 summons only have 30 base power, so they quickly get overtaken by area psys. Likewise, tier 2 summons only have 60 base power, which is comparable to psynergy available at that time. This essentially just makes tier 1 or 2 summons into a "free psynergy cast," but a single free psynergy cast is not going to win the battle for you; you'll still probably be expending PP elsewhere if you're trying to one-round an encounter - and if you don't one-round, you're going to be expending PP on healing instead. When tier 3 becomes available is the first time it might be considered a problem, since they have a base power of 120, and tier 4 is 240.

In regard to buffing psynergy... you wouldn't need to cut their cost in half. A small reduction would go a long way. Remember that PP regen is a thing. You don't have a fixed amount of psynergy you can spend, but rather an infinite resource that takes time to fill to a capacity. I do think area psy PP costs are slightly too high across the board, but even as much as a 20% reduction would let the player spam them considerably more.
Logged

Spoiler for quotes:
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O
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« Reply #22 on: 12, August, 2017, 08:17:18 PM »

Honestly, the turn gating is something I disagree with.  There are better ways to handle summons - one of the biggest things you could do is basically make enemies faster so that summon rushing can be punished.  Plus, this basically makes any summon that costs more than 5-6 even more useless than they already are.  Balancing summons would need to go both ways, because some just can't justify their cost.
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« Reply #23 on: 12, August, 2017, 09:30:48 PM »

Yeah, I'm not fond of the turn-gating solution, myself. You mentioned reducing djinn count and reducing power of multi-elemental summons on the discord, and that's definitely something I can agree with. Any summon that takes 7+ djinn is only useful for summon rushing, and is more of a gimmick than anything to pull out in normal combat. That would help balancing pretty much everything except Iris, since Iris's secondary effect (revive all party members, even those out of battle) is fundamentally broken; it would either need that effect removed or it would need to remain at a very high djinn count.

Higher enemy agility is actually pretty clever. If turn speed is balanced around the expectation of the player having djinn and having them set, that means that if the player *does not* have their djinn set, they'll end up moving after the enemies, which defeats the point of trying to summon against them in the first place. It would dance a pretty fine line to get it right, but it has the potential to fix the problem without having to change any basic game mechanics.
« Last Edit: 12, August, 2017, 09:37:40 PM by leaf » Logged

Spoiler for quotes:
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O
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« Reply #24 on: 12, August, 2017, 09:52:26 PM »

I think Iris' secondary effect is straight up excessive.  It's almost like they made it that powerful to justify the extreme cost.  I'm fine turning it into a front row only percentile recovery.  Perhaps drop revival effects for PP recovery.  How's 50% HP recovery and 12.5% PP Recovery sound for a 7 cost summon?
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« Reply #25 on: 12, August, 2017, 10:49:49 PM »

But see, here's the thing; you need to beat Dullahan to GET to Iris!  Is it really OP when you don't have it for the guy who's toughest anyway?
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« Reply #26 on: 13, August, 2017, 12:02:53 AM »

Yeah... Iris is probably best left as a gimmick in all honesty. Not everything *needs* to be practical, especially if it's the reward for beating the uber boss.
Logged

Spoiler for quotes:
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O
View Profile
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« Reply #27 on: 13, August, 2017, 04:15:21 AM »

But see, here's the thing; you need to beat Dullahan to GET to Iris!  Is it really OP when you don't have it for the guy who's toughest anyway?
But it's not.  It costs too much to be useful.  If it was OP, then it'd be too cheap for the effect.  What good is a prize that's never worth using?
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« Reply #28 on: 13, August, 2017, 05:25:37 PM »

He was saying it would be okay if the cost was made cheaper to make it "OP" while keeping the effect. Personally, I disagree, since it'd be nice if the doom dragon still offered at least some semblance of challenge, even after beating all other content.

I'd rather just leave Iris as a trophy summon. It doesn't need to be practical. It's there to look pretty and to commemorate your beating of Dullahan.
Logged

Spoiler for quotes:
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O
View Profile
Rolina
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« Reply #29 on: 13, August, 2017, 09:44:15 PM »

Whereas I fundamentally disagree - if a reward is useless, then it's not a worthy reward, especially if the price of the reward is facing a boss as cheap as Dullahan.  Why bother fighting it?  Once you know how pointless the reward is, then there's no point in even bothering unless you're doing a completionist run.  Might as well have been given a crumpled piece of paper saying "you beat dullahan, good for you", since that would be equally as useful as a reward.
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« Reply #30 on: 13, August, 2017, 10:02:26 PM »

Whereas I fundamentally disagree - if a reward is useless, then it's not a worthy reward, especially if the price of the reward is facing a boss as cheap as Dullahan.  Why bother fighting it?  Once you know how pointless the reward is, then there's no point in even bothering unless you're doing a completionist run.  Might as well have been given a crumpled piece of paper saying "you beat dullahan, good for you", since that would be equally as useful as a reward.

Exactly.  It'd be like how Deadbeard's Demon Mail is like, the most worthless thing ever (and is, in fact, actually detrimental, since Elemental resistance trumps raw Defense).
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« Reply #31 on: 14, August, 2017, 08:28:41 AM »

Considering the whole point of beating bonus bosses for many people is to say they did it, I think it's fine. The reward is knowing that you were able to beat the game's superboss, which is honestly a better reward than *any* item you could give the player at that point. Something awesome but impractical is *preferable* for this kind of situation, since the player isn't going to have anything left to use it on anyway.
Logged

Spoiler for quotes:
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O
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« Reply #32 on: 14, August, 2017, 10:56:59 AM »

Eh, easiest thing to do is make Iris useful - a 6-7 djinn cost Iris does that.  At double the cost, it's pointless.
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« Reply #33 on: 14, August, 2017, 10:25:27 PM »

No, the "easiest thing to do" is to leave it exactly as it is. Too many designers get worked up about giving every possible quest a gameplay-related reward. Sometimes, it's better to give the player a reward in the form of feedback - a cool cinematic, some story, etc, rather than something that directly impacts the gameplay. In a lot of cases, this feedback reward is more valuable to a player than getting a new shiny weapon. For many players, Iris is just that - it's a cool cinematic with an "apparently" broken effect.

And for the small segment of the playerbase that manages to beat Dullahan but somehow falters on the Doom Dragon, it's very practical to summon using your second party. If you put the djinn on standby beforehand, you can turn 1 Iris after a wipe. It's conventionally more useful than any other 7+ djinn summon in the game.
Logged

Spoiler for quotes:
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O
View Profile
Rolina
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« Reply #34 on: 15, August, 2017, 08:58:25 AM »

We're just not going to agree on this then.
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« Reply #35 on: 15, August, 2017, 04:29:16 PM »

I actually agree with Rolina on this...but it's not terribly important either way.  Endgame rewards liek those are such a minor part of the game, that's it's like "oh well".
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