Future of the site?

[Misery]

How is it a problem?  If it's not an active community, people lose interest and leave.  Sala, for example.  When we've only got one or two people left, then who is Teawater developing for?  If Teawater is gonna take over development for the editor, which it looks like he's trying to do, the least we can do is make sure there's an active site to keep people here for when he makes releases.

If the site is to get more activity, I'd prefer it to be on the hacking/indie development side of things, since that feels more relevant to the site. But of course, a community is defined by its members, so I guess only time can tell what becomes of this site. Regarding hacking progress and development of the editor... I'm under the impression he does it because it's interesting. Isn't that the reason anyone would hack a game in the first place? At least I know I don't do it to be nice to people on the internet... however, improvements on the editor would be helpful to a lot of people. When that time comes, spread the news. But people who don't come here for stuff related to editing the GS games probably won't be eagerly awaiting a new editor release.

Sala, for example.

He didn't leave because of inactivity and lack of interest.  He left because of school and the @#$% you did last April Fools Day.

We all have different priorities, and since he decided to leave entirely, clearly the other things in his life are more interesting than this site. I find it difficult to believe the time he spent here would cause him to do so poorly at school that it would cause him problems in life. I figure he just got bored with us all, and I can't blame him. He seemed to try to encourage people to do stuff all the time and hardly got any response at all.

Kind of depressing for me to be the only one, huh? ; I wouldn't quite say the Map Code Viewer is very powerful, but I suppose it is well on its way. (I haven't advanced the feature yet, or anything, though.)

I guess it's powerful in the same way that a hex editor is powerful... it does show you all the code related to the particular map, which scripts are being used, which data is being loaded  (and to some extent which routines are being called)... and also disassembles all the code on the map. shame it has no search function though.

GBA Thumb is simple, but I suppose you only mean the ARM counterpart. Which makes some sense as well. Sometimes you'll even see them down in a 2-step process. (Much like having two thumb instructions.)

Actually, I've probably only been looking at thumb code
I suppose it's simple enough, but as if having 32-bit opcodes wasn't bad enough already, breaking down hex values to bit level to find out which particular flavor of an instruction I'm looking at, still not being entirely sure, and not having any context to what is being done after getting through a few instructions... it's kind of frustrating. But I suppose it's really the wrong way to go about it. It always seems like I'm starting in the wrong end...

add r0, r1, r2 lsl r3

is the same as

lsl r0, r2, r3
add r0, r1, r0

r0 for lsl is a guess.

Which amounts to : r0 = r1 + (r2 << r3) ; if I recall correctly.

So, uh...
lsl r0, r2, r3 - shifts the bits in r2 left by the value in r3, and stores in r0?
add r0, r1, r0 - add r1 to r0 and store result in r0, I guess?

Yeah I know I said I could do assembly, but I don't exactly have a lot of experience with it

Ofcourse, there are many other things you should know about arm. Like if you have a 64-bit return, the result goes in two registers. (One for the most significant part, and the other for the least significant.)

Umm, yeah. I hope I can get the basics of thumb down before I even have to deal with ARM code. I also can never seem to remember how GBA addresses work (as in which written address equals which physical address). But, let's not turn this thread into ASM discussion
I noticed there's a thread specifically for ASM questions... I might try to bug you about it later, if I find the motivation to look into it again.

[Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas]

I downloaded the editor THEN joined the site.

I believe I did the same thing back in 2009, if I remember correctly.

If the site is to get more activity, I'd prefer it to be on the hacking/indie development side of things, since that feels more relevant to the site. But of course, a community is defined by its members, so I guess only time can tell what becomes of this site. Regarding hacking progress and development of the editor... I'm under the impression he does it because it's interesting. Isn't that the reason anyone would hack a game in the first place? At least I know I don't do it to be nice to people on the internet... however, improvements on the editor would be helpful to a lot of people. When that time comes, spread the news. But people who don't come here for stuff related to editing the GS games probably won't be eagerly awaiting a new editor release.

I'm not so sure an active site would make releases any faster unless the people in it were helping in the long run. (Hacking/logging information; adding to the editor; making suggestions; etc.)

And yes, researching data and coding is very interesting. But it is also very time consuming, which means that it gets boring, and this results in procrastination. And the same can apply with coding as well, except you are adding unexplained confusion when you get bugs you can't easily understand to the mix. (Much like that time I tried to add Keyboard Support.) In many cases, all this can pile up, til eventually, you end up quitting the project. (Especially when you find out that it's more to deal with than it is worth because of having better things to do.)

Now, having people here to use the editor is a nice encouragement, but sometimes, you just got to wonder if it is enough.

I suppose it's simple enough, but as if having 32-bit opcodes wasn't bad enough already, breaking down hex values to bit level to find out which particular flavor of an instruction I'm looking at, still not being entirely sure, and not having any context to what is being done after getting through a few instructions... it's kind of frustrating. But I suppose it's really the wrong way to go about it. It always seems like I'm starting in the wrong end...

If you ever plan on hacking DS, get use to seeing 32-bit code. ; I could go with a long tutorial, but I suppose it wouldn't help much if I didn't know which parts you actually needed help on.

-Find data based on what you are looking for (RAM/VRAM/PALETTE) If the value is to be in RAM (Ex: A Stat number) Use Search for cheats / RAM Search.
-You may want to find out how this data is affected, so you should use a debugger. (VBA-SDL-H) With a breakpoint write if looking for things like party data, etc.
-Sometimes, when scanning the code (In the case of breakpoint-write, scroll up), you can just look for ROM pointers, and research what those are if you don't feel like reading the assembly. Make sure not to scroll up too far, though, or you'll be looking at a different function. (Usually functions start with the push opcode, but they don't have to have one if they don't need one.) If you don't see any pointers, then you probably check the parent function. (The function that called the function you are looking at.) ; There are ways of finding the parent function, so it shouldn't be too difficult.

Pretty much, when reading the code, you must understand what the variables in the registers of the instruction you are looking at are- before you can understand the purpose of the instruction that is being executed.

Sometimes, you may not even need to check the assembly at all to find data that you are looking for. For example, for uncompressed graphics, you can simply search for matching data in a Hex Editor.

breaking down hex values to bit level to find out which particular flavor of an instruction I'm looking at

Do you mean you aren't actually looking at the instructions themselves, but trying to convert the hex values instead? That seems to be a long way to go about it. Why not try using the GBA Dissassembler? (Tools => Dissassemble...) I probably should tell you that the map code is at 02008000.

Umm, yeah. I hope I can get the basics of thumb down before I even have to deal with ARM code. I also can never seem to remember how GBA addresses work (as in which written address equals which physical address). But, let's not turn this thread into ASM discussion
I noticed there's a thread specifically for ASM questions... I might try to bug you about it later, if I find the motivation to look into it again.

The addresses are read with ldr. ldr r#, [$########] (=$########) ; The address in the square brackets [ ] is where the value of the one in parenthesis ( ) is at. The parenthesis value should include the address of a database. And you aren't just limited to ROM pointers. RAM, VRAM, PALETTE, etc. are done the same way. ; Anyway, this puts the address in r#, you can then make any calculations you want to read/write to the specific data in the databases. After the calculations are made, we use another load (ldr/ldrh/ldrb/etc., depending on the datatype) to read the data. (Or if we are writing to RAM, str/strh/strb/etc.)

Okay, perhaps this shouldn't be an ASM thread. Anyway, the thread I made on ASM questions should be in General Hacking, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, here it is:  http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=966.0

[Misery]

I'm not so sure an active site would make releases any faster unless the people in it were helping in the long run. (Hacking/logging information; adding to the editor; making suggestions; etc.)

Probably not, but I never said it would.

And yes, researching data and coding is very interesting. But it is also very time consuming, which means that it gets boring, and this results in procrastination. And the same can apply with coding as well, except you are adding unexplained confusion when you get bugs you can't easily understand to the mix. (Much like that time I tried to add Keyboard Support.) In many cases, all this can pile up, til eventually, you end up quitting the project. (Especially when you find out that it's more to deal with than it is worth because of having better things to do.)

Tell me about it - looks like you just nailed the reason why I haven't made much progress.

Looks like you took the time to reply to all my questions anyway...
I'll take the replies to the appropriate thread

[Atrius (He/Him)]

I agree with Misery on prefering the site to remain a GS hacking/indie game community.  Even if we expand it as a general Golden Sun site there are already more active sites for that purpose, we'd be competing with established communities. 

I definitely don't care for turning it into something it was never meant to be to begin with like an RP community.  I doubt I would have any interest in it any more so it would get handed off too.  Might as well just shut the site down, and open a different one.

Ultimately I would like to try to honor the wishes of the members, but in my case if GSHC dies as GSHC I'd be fine with it.

[Rolina]

Well, that's the thing.  Not everyone wishes for the site to die - some of us invested over three years of our lives here.  We'd like to see it stick around a bit longer, even if that means we do things like make hacks for games other than golden sun.

[Kain]

Sites die eventually Role, no matter how popular or lively they are and no matter how much we love them.  IMO it's amazing that a site lasts longer than a year.  This site's been here for 3+ and I believe as long as activity is happening the site will remain.  (Which btw, how many others are actually hacking and contributing data?)

I'm not doing this to sound rude but, unless you can get more people to work or get some kind of thing going, I don't see GSHC lasting much longer.

[Misery]

There may not be that many left who are interested in hacking the GS games, but I still think there's enough to form something that could be considered a community. When the site is no longer maintained, I suppose that's when it dies, but I hope nobody will try to kill it off as long as there is still interest.

This is the only site dedicated to researching and editing the GS games. If it were to try to do something else it would lose its purpose for existing, at least in my eyes. As Atrius already said, we'd be competing with better established communities. Even if the site disappears, neither its members nor their actions will (though several have already left, or otherwise ceased their activity). At the very least, I'd expect the most significant research data and documentation to be archived.

[Kioll]

Right now, I say we keep on trucking forward.  If we want to bring activity back to the site, I think the best way to do that is start coordinating efforts on our various projects.  For instance, for those of us who have the time on our hands, some of us are working on rather large overall projects, such as my BYOND game, and possibly Role's signature thing.  Things that could use extra hands.  If we can start working together (like a good community should), we might be able to put some life back into this site.  I know once I get more hands on my project I'll start updating information on it on here a lot more often, and this would be the first place I'd go looking for alpha and beta testers.

[Crystal Sonata]

I didn't read every post word for word, but I got a good idea on each of them.

Personally, I like Tea's first post where he suggests branching from hacking to full information on the Golden Sun games. It might be worth it to spend some time building a section that acts as a database for all information on Golden Sun.

I myself don't like the idea of a RP forum, but that's just me. If others like the idea, I won't leave simply because of a topic change here. What I would like to see is more visitors. More content that matches what people google in combination with "Golden Sun" means more possible visits. More visits means more possible people joining our ranks. More people joining means more content and interest. It's a cycle that we ourselves have to start and keep going.

If I was any good at coding, I would be working on the editor, but my website coding is shoddy at best these days, and I've only ever attempted making a program once.....Bad experience. That said, I'm still very interested in seeing a complete editor, as well as seeing the Community Hack created.

[Mion Sonozaki]

I'm not an RPer, and I joined this site with the hopes to see Gs hacking progress. I hope GS hacking will continue to progress, and some of Teawater's work gives me hope! :)

[dwkjohn]

personally, i love the sight. i regret having been gone for so long. i wish i had stayed. i dont want it to die at all. i had big plans for things here. i was hoping to get some of my friends in on the site. and why does it have to be a huge community. i see plenty of people. and y'all are all great people. if more people come then great, but im happy with the people here now. i dont do RP at all. never really tried it frankly, but i would prefer it stay hacking. i just think we can keep on going. who knows maybe there will be an upswing in GS fans.

and as for the community project, i wish it would keep going even if it didnt get to where we thought it would be. but i would be glad to hop on any hacking project and contribute what i can.

[Thunder-squall]

Clearly you guys are still hacking.  And as an outsider, I'm glad you guys exist.  So rock on.

If one was to think of how the site would change or evolve or whatever, clearly it'd just have to get better at doing what it does, and not try to be something it's not.  A quick google search found that "the Golden Sun Adept's Refuge" already sprung up to do the other info/roleplay stuff some members talked about.  So what are your coding related goals?  I may not be here for much, but I can at least provide some conversation.  And I'm genuinely interested.

As a hobbyist coder, I'd say people sometimes code in spurts.  And spurts are easier to commit to than lifestyle choices.  And I think stuff like Adept's Refuge is basically a lifestyle choice.  I expect the reason "Sala" left was just because he (she?) realized he was too committed to this community--perhaps even too dependent on it, in terms of what he did on a daily basis (it's the same with anyone if they find themselves checking the same forum on a daily basis, or even multiple times a day).  And so he freed himself (I apologize if I'm assuming too much.  I mean to make general observations, and don't claim to know the specifics of you and your friends).

What I propose is that you make it ok and even EXPECTED that people only come to the site in X-month.  So it's an intense, but limited commitment.  There's a reason why we have that month where people are challenged to start and finish a novel; to code a game in XX-hours; to make a movie in XX-hours etc.

So... here's an idea.  A sort of tradition you can do on Aprils' fool, or on Halloween, or some occasion when it's in season to play tricks.  Make it an event where you go into a rom, and make one small but funny change.  And include a tutorial on how to do it.   This could result in a single blog post, or whatever.  Better yet, a youtube vid.  But essentially it's
(1) An excuse for people to tune in, once a year,
(2) where they'll see what you do, and be reminded of hacking,
(3) be shown how to do a simple hack.

So it's really just PR, and maybe you'll have a good time brainstorming what simple hack you want to do.  And maybe people like Sala would feel just fine dropping back in for a little bit, just to say hi.

And if you have enough people who actually hack, eventually you could even make a challenge of this, to see who can provide the funniest hack.  Because the goal is humor and "viewer's choice," one wouldn't even have to be a great hacker to compete.  All you need is a quick way to show off your hack.  And nowadays one could do this quickly and cheaply with a gif maker.

[Misery]

If by "you guys" you mean Teawater, then yeah...
And I guess I pick this up occasionally too, but even then I mostly work on my own projects and don't do much in the way of research.

[Kioll]

I expect the reason "Sala" left was just because he (she?) realized he was too committed to this community--perhaps even too dependent on it, in terms of what he did on a daily basis (it's the same with anyone if they find themselves checking the same forum on a daily basis, or even multiple times a day).  And so he freed himself (I apologize if I'm assuming too much.  I mean to make general observations, and don't claim to know the specifics of you and your friends).

Salanewt (a guy, by the way), left for other reasons.  As a person who considers himself in the know on this sort of thing, I will inform you that Sala left not because he felt trapped, but because he felt like he wasn't needed.  Also, he was pushed away slightly, by who or what I won't say.  Regardless, Sala still produces stuff that gets put up here occasionally, just doesn't do it himself.

Your other ideas are fine, by the way...  Also, I officially have to thank you for proving I'm not the only person who knows what NaNo is.

[Thunder-squall]

If by "you guys" you mean Teawater, then yeah...
And I guess I pick this up occasionally too, but even then I mostly work on my own projects and don't do much in the way of research.

lol, sorry.  What kind of projects are you working on?  Or are you keeping them secret so the vultures don't pick at your baby?
And it seems even Atrius is in the same boat as you, so ... heck.  I guess the main thing you guys have in common is that you're each working towards your own thing.  Or am I putting too much pressure on you?

I expect the reason "Sala" left was just because he (she?) realized he was too committed to this community--perhaps even too dependent on it, in terms of what he did on a daily basis (it's the same with anyone if they find themselves checking the same forum on a daily basis, or even multiple times a day).  And so he freed himself (I apologize if I'm assuming too much.  I mean to make general observations, and don't claim to know the specifics of you and your friends).

Salanewt (a guy, by the way), left for other reasons.  As a person who considers himself in the know on this sort of thing, I will inform you that Sala left not because he felt trapped, but because he felt like he wasn't needed.  Also, he was pushed away slightly, by who or what I won't say.  Regardless, Sala still produces stuff that gets put up here occasionally, just doesn't do it himself.

Your other ideas are fine, by the way...  Also, I officially have to thank you for proving I'm not the only person who knows what NaNo is.

So this is in reference to the mysterious group-project that blew up?  I'm reminded of that phrase from the old "wonder years" tv show, that sometimes you need to grow apart, to grow together.  It's cool that he's still active, and his stuff's getting recognized over here.

[Misery]

If by "you guys" you mean Teawater, then yeah...
And I guess I pick this up occasionally too, but even then I mostly work on my own projects and don't do much in the way of research.

lol, sorry.  What kind of projects are you working on?  Or are you keeping them secret so the vultures don't pick at your baby?
And it seems even Atrius is in the same boat as you, so ... heck.  I guess the main thing you guys have in common is that you're each working towards your own thing.  Or am I putting too much pressure on you?

lol, don't worry about it. It's not as much that I'm keeping it secret as that I really don't have much to share.

The hack project that I keep coming back to is meant to be a game where you keep a 4-player party through the entire game. Difficulty will be raised quite a bit, and there's a lot of focus on the class system. I'm trying to add more strategic variety to the game, and it will also play a lot more like a dungeon crawler than an RPG.

[Thunder-squall]

One reason I'm bad with some RPGs is that I can't handle the pressure of making a *permanent* decision.  And I just came from the TWEWY thread, so I gotta ask, is it possible to hack in a slider that can toggle player's levels and stats?  This way you get to have your difficulty cake, and eat it too (not sure if the metaphor checks out).

Is there a thread where you talk about the ideas behind your game/hack?  I know that people tend to bounce between " I wanna talk about my ideas" and "argh, I'm sick of talking--I wanna make something!"  What zone are you in right now?

[Misery]

I'm a person who dislikes having to make permanent decisions as well. I tend to handle it much better in games, since well, they're games.

I don't have any thread where I talk about my current project, although I have a few design documents for it. I'm somewhat reluctant to share anything about it since I keep changing things all the time, but at the very least the classes have begun to cement themselves after many revisions and iterations.

As for the difficulty thing, the game already has a "hard mode", so it might be possible to apply checks for that in more places. As it is though, it only raises HP and stats of enemies, doing any more than that might be a bit complicated.

However, the "difficulty" I have in mind isn't about making the game more grindy, it's mainly about making character customization and strategic choices have more significance.

[Thunder-squall]

So... here's an idea.  A sort of tradition you can do on Aprils' fool, or on Halloween, or some occasion when it's in season to play tricks...

aw hell.   At the time I didn't even know. My bad. This was a hilariously bad choice of example, in retrospect.

But the suggestion's basically to do small "community things" once in a while, like "let's all replay the first Golden Sun," or whatever.  I'm in no way advocating doing forced stuff to try and "build up activity," or whatever.  Activity will go where it wants to go.  And let virtual spaces be what they are.

So what is this place for you guys now?  Is this the only place you hang, or is it just one of your periodic stops?

[Daddy Poi's Oily Gorillas]

One of the periodic stops.

I go to Yoshi's Lighthouse, YouTube, DeSmuME.org to see when DeSmuME gets updated, romhacking.net (To check utilities), I sometimes check when the Lazyshell editor has been updated, I also use google a lot.

I also go to 3dbrew.org to see where their fundraiser is going, but now, the page to donate is gone... (It has been unavailable for some time, so I'm not sure what they are up to.)