History of Weyard

[Thunder-squall]

Can't find much historical references for weyard, but alternate spellings sort of work.

[Rolina]

Also, can we talk about something somewhat important to the setting?

We need to go out of our way to never call Light and Dark "elements" ever when referring to the GS series.  It's minor, I know, but it's a fun little mental trick - when you start referring to them as the Fundaments (you know, because that's what they are), you stop thinking of them as though they're the same as the four elements (you know, because they're not).  A lot of the things making me go O.o and "the hell did they get that from?" seem to stem from.  GS does not treat Light and Dark as though they're elements - its not like Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest or any of the other fantasy games out there.  It's a related, parallel force. 

Let's look at it this way - the four elements are like the visual spectrum.  They make like, colors and stuff.  But the fundaments are more like sounds.  They're still a form of entertainment, and they work REALLY great with the visual stuffs, but they're not the same thing, and they're handled differently.

[Thunder-squall]

Well... we do not have much lore about it, so someone has to -start- to create a logical explanation...

Let's put my theory to test:
1) Dying but not dead Weyard: as I said in the other post, I think that all that exists came from the interactions between light and darkness, which are related to Alchemy. So, everything that is created, is created. Period. That would explain why matter still exists. But sealing the Alchemy means that nothing gets renewed.
My questions here are: how releasing Alchemy could stop the world from falling into the falls? Releasing Alchemy will result in merging the continents again? If so, Alchemy is responsible for this bond.

"Constant creation" is perhaps the only way to explain how water keeps flowing off of Weyard, and how its land area can actually grow or resist erosion from the water.  And thus we need a theory in which constant-creation can be explained by Alchemy.

I use an alchemy well to explain the water.

Vegetation and root systems could explain the growing land mass and its stability.

2) Charging/recharging: well... everything is created by Alchemy, including Psynergy. But there is a difference between the elemental psynergies and the "alchemy energies (technically they are not PSYnergies, unless used by someone)" (responsible for creation). How could I explain this... Light and darkness interactions created earth, water, wind and fire. These are the "blocks" for creating matter. So, for example, wood is created by all these elements (15% fire, 40% earth...). Nothing is created by a single element, except, maybe, the purified essence inside the elemental stars.
The psynergy used by Adepts don't come directly from Alchemy (inderectly, yes, just like everything that it's not void), but from the psynergy stones that are a particular matter (but just created by the same means as wood) capable of imbuing people with the power of psynergy. They are already created. That's why - in my humble theory - Adepts still can use Psynergy despite Alchemy already being sealed.

I think psy energy is when people communicate spiritually or mentally with the elements, share a mind space, and then take an action (while sharing a mind with the elements)

Alchemy is the automated and mechanized version of this.  This is why alchemy engines can run non stop, and why they pose so much risk for causing disharmony among the elements.

The natural elements, anyway.  My hypothesis is that all of Weyard is unnatural, and exists only through the use and abuse of alchemy.

[Rolina]

Constant Creation is one way, the other is part of Flip Side Theory.  I personally believe it's a bit of both - there's no way some water isn't lost over Gaia Falls, even if it's dragged back into the middle.  I think sources like Aqua Rock are largely responsible for that creation.

[Luna_blade]

If you want the light houses to remain unlit, then why not destroy them, or at least make it mechanically impossible to light them?

The answer is that they were switches, meant to be able to be turned on or off when a select few (adepts) decided to do so.  Their design suggests (1) adaptive management, in that the houses would be lit and unlit as needed, and (2) control by committee, where the decision to light them was in the hands of more than one individual, assuming that an individual could only be an adept of one element.

'Aadaptive management' is an engineering term you should look up if you're not already familiar with it.  It's prevalent in situations where there is no stable 'steady state,' and that seems to describe Weyard perfectly.

Well that is a good description. I can totally agree with it.

Second, Flip Side Theory, where the two sides of weyards have basically a pressure difference because only one side's golden sun is lit.  The other side doesn't have vortexes, but violent Psynergy Storms, where all that energy sucked away here is unleashed upon a corresponding point in the Flip Side.

Well my theory isn't fully finished but it looks like your Flip Side theory. I think the other side of Weyard or the surface of the planet beneath Weyard, holds four other lighthouse that form a Silver Moon.
The Silver Moon is what eventually sorta causes the Vortexes.

Otherwise they could be something external completely.

Weyard can't have been creative with alchemy, because that implies that people were already there.  Alchemy is more of the life blood of the planet, so it's more akin to FF7 and the use of Mako energy for materia.  Without the "lifestream" of weyard, it begins to wither and die.  With it restored, it begins to recover.

That seems logical.

There really isn't one, sadly.  Nothing in the series is said of any kind of pantheon or creation myths.

There are some fanfics however.

I have a theory.
I think that the light and dark elements are not conected to psynergy directly. They are linked to Alchemy! (I have to work this point more, but it makes sense, since we did not see any light/dark psyenergy when Alchemy was sealed).
I think that the "non-void" (all that exists) is created by the disruptive waves caused by the interaction between those two elements.
Sorry if someone else said the exactly same thing before.

I thank you for the feedback, but this is not the place to post this. Try this topic:http://forum.goldensunhacking.net/index.php?topic=2394.0
Eh, leave it. Just use this topic for everything.

So Alchemy and Psynergy are different? I thought they were pretty much the same on general terms...
(Let me make a random comparison (Might be illogical, but..?): Alchemy is the spirit of Weyard, and Psynergy is the mind power of people.)  (quote shortened)

Yeah I think they are different. (check URL above for theories)
The battery charger comparison is a good one.

My questions here are: how releasing Alchemy could stop the world from falling into the falls? Releasing Alchemy will result in merging the continents again? If so, Alchemy is responsible for this bond.

Well Alchemy might just provide a lot of the "blocks". I'm not exactly sure how this works now you mention it.

2) Charging/recharging: well... everything is created by Alchemy, including Psynergy. (quote shortened)

I think the blocks are just the way we and the people of weyard see it. If the elements are part of Alchemy then it is just a way to see it. Example: We could also divide Alchemy in Sol(earth+fire) an Luna(water+wind). See were I'm going with this?

I think psy energy is when people communicate spiritually or mentally with the elements, share a mind space, and then take an action (while sharing a mind with the elements)

Alchemy is the automated and mechanized version of this.  This is why alchemy engines can run non stop, and why they pose so much risk for causing disharmony among the elements.

The natural elements, anyway.  My hypothesis is that all of Weyard is unnatural, and exists only through the use and abuse of alchemy.

Sharing minds? Hmm, the longer I think about it the more sense it makes.

Unnatural? You mean like how life (organisms) IRL earth is also sort of strange and unnatural?

[Thunder-squall]

People have been talking about psychic powers for a long, long time.  IF the idea of psyenergy in Golden Sun is remotely descendent from them, then I think Carl Jung is a good source.  He talks about 'psychic chronicity,' where human thoughts have happened to coincide with real world phenomenon.  People have then gone on to theorize on mystical reasons for why this may be the case, and the common idea is that people who express these 'psychic' abilities are basically sharing mind space with the things they seem to be causing or predicting. Basically, they're talking or empathizing with the natural forces, and occasionally asking the forces to behave in ways the forces normally would not behave in.

A related question would be: What would increase the psychic abilities of people, such they would be able to influence the elements?  Eastern philosophy and religion are filled with people who have attained god like powers through practice and devotion, and attaining god like powers isn't quite so hard or virtuous as attaining wisdom, or finding a way of life that makes the world better.  In Weyard's past, we see the evidence of god like powers, but not god like wisdom.  Therefore it would stand to reason that the ancients actively sought out to increase their psychic abilities (as well as their technological abilities/alchemy), and the way to do that seems to be through utilizing the 5th Japanese Element, the void.

If the 'void' is just another word for soul-space (which is the mental-medium through which psychics use their power), then that reminds of something which reminds me of 'dark psyenergy.' Simply, all humans mind have the part of themselves that they can understand, and the part of themselves that they can only feel, and cannot always control.  When using the Tao as a psychological metaphor, this is the part of the 'Ying yang' that is associated with darkness.

I can imagine a world where the ancients further experimented with new ways to use psyenergy, and ended up bringing Darkness into the Light (where it shouldn't be), creating creatures of darkness that could not survive the light, but which found ways to persist anyway.  This fits with what Chalis purportedly said about fearing the light.  If I were telling the story, I would feature the umbral clan either as victims, or as scientists who wanted to explore the limits of existence.  I would not have them be a power-equivalent to the whatever the forces of sol were. 

Then again... I guess I've got too many possibilities on my mind right now, such that I cannot focus on a single one.  That's not a bad thing.

[Luna_blade]

People have been talking about psychic powers for a long, long time.  IF the idea of psyenergy in Golden Sun is remotely descendent from them, then I think Carl Jung is a good source.  He talks about 'psychic chronicity,' where human thoughts have happened to coincide with real world phenomenon.  People have then gone on to theorize on mystical reasons for why this may be the case, and the common idea is that people who express these 'psychic' abilities are basically sharing mind space with the things they seem to be causing or predicting. Basically, they're talking or empathizing with the natural forces, and occasionally asking the forces to behave in ways the forces normally would not behave in.

Well this could be the thing that happen in the GS series. But what is used to share the mind with the forces? PP? Then the question is what is PP? This is interesting stuff since I never really thought about it.

Void? Corruption perhaps? That was something fannon in some Final Fantasy games.

And yeah a bit of "With power comes responibility"? You can be a strong adept, but without the wisdom on how to use your psynergy (and I mean goals, not the magic itself) you're not much or dangerous.

UNRELATED: what about non-adept not being able to see Psynergy???
In my theory that would either mean it's plain ol' invisible OR Psynergy is not a part of Alchemy.
Or the elements do not come from Alchemy...

[Rolina]

Pretty sure it's just an analogue for magic in this world - it's not Psionics as most sci-fi peeps would know it.  At least, that's how it's used.  In fact, in the original japanese, it's not even Psynergy - it's just Energy, and those who can use it are called Energists.  What I don't know is whether the psychic aspect was a localization quirk, or if it was in the original.

[Luna_blade]

People have been talking about psychic powers for a long, long time.  IF the idea of psyenergy in Golden Sun is remotely descendent from them, then I think Carl Jung is a good source.  He talks about 'psychic chronicity,' where human thoughts have happened to coincide with real world phenomenon.  People have then gone on to theorize on mystical reasons for why this may be the case, and the common idea is that people who express these 'psychic' abilities are basically sharing mind space with the things they seem to be causing or predicting. Basically, they're talking or empathizing with the natural forces, and occasionally asking the forces to behave in ways the forces normally would not behave in.

Wait a second here. In GS1 master Nyunpa and Master Feh tell the party Psynergy is actually Ki!

[Rolina]

No, they said Ki is another name for it.  Ki refers to mental manipulation, while Chi seems to be physical manipulation.  You see similar themes in other Japanese media.  Negima comes to mind in particular.  Even then, in the original Japanese they called it something else iirc, and Chi was actually called Kung Fu.

[Misery]

Chi was actually called Kung Fu.

lol.

Anyway, I think psynergy is supposed to be a type of psychic power, different from actual magic. There seems to be actual supernatural phenomena, while psynergy isn't considered supernatural by characters who are familiar with it. But the games are pretty ambiguous on this, what with all the psynergy abilities modeled to act like magical spells, class names like "Magician", "Wizard", etc...

[Radamanthys]

A looot has been posted on this thread and making a response to everything would probably end up in a bloated post that would derive into rambling but I just want to point a couple things: Dark/Light "elements" and the sealing of Alchemy.

1) I agree with Rolina, Light and Dark aren't elements, Camelot introduced these aspects in weird ways with DD that don't really fit Alchemy and the creation/change of matter within the 4 primordial elements, although I rather like they were trying to explain them in that they were aspects that transcended the four base elements and Adepts in the far past wanted to use them to attain God-like powers (though at the same time, it is the creation of the Stone of Sages in the first series what granted one god-like powers)

Not to mention that DD seems to hint that Luna is associated with Dark but what we know about the moon is that 1) the Anemos folk went on to live in there and that it's exposure to certain Jupiter Adepts (those under the influence of Air's Rock) causes their beast-like powers to manifest.

===

2) And as for Alchemy, Kraden explains it many times, it's the force/powers/energy/mako/whatever that drives the four elements to build matter and psyenergy is the practical way to manipulate it by using alchemy to make a plant grow or make things explode or make water go through its 3 states and so on.

The whole sealing of alchemy doesn't means psyenergy stops in all of the world, what it did was seal the power that would allow one to create the Stone of Sages, this means you shut off the flow of alchemy into this world by sealing the jupiter, venus, mercury and mars beacons (which in the past they may have not existed as beacons or lighthouses, the lighthouse structures seem to function like water taps).

Alchemy as the life-force in this world has little to do with the psyenergy vortexes, the game hints strongly that they come from machines made by the zenith (a machine being started can be heard when those vortexes activate), someone stated somewhere in this thread that it is kind of like the lifestream/mako of FF7 and I agree it is a very close parallel. Materia is solidified Mako like how Psyenergy stones is solidified psyenergy.