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 Dark Adepts. What are they? What are dark psi energy powers?
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Author Topic: Dark Adepts. What are they? What are dark psi energy powers?  (Read 9750 times)
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Thunder-squall
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« on: April 30, 2014, 02:58:31 AM »

And what would dark psi-energy be?

Since there's no one stopping me, I'm going to make a bunch of things up.  I think dark-adepts can use portals to teleport through both space AND time, and also merge their matter with other matter, ie. to combine into a chaos chimera.

This is sort of a quantum theory idea, where under harsh light, there is but one reality, but without light (when there is no cosmic "observer"), reality may skip and skew as it pleases.  So things that would be well defined (space, time, matter) are no longer well defined.

This also applies to identity.  When using dark psi-energy (I spell it that way because I can, and because I'm used to saying psionics), people lose sense of their identity, and this may also have the effect of losing sense of their sanity.
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« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2014, 03:06:50 AM »

Psychic
Energy

Psynergy.

As for what I believe Dark Adepts to be... Well, I hope you like reading.

The Aspect System, Part 1 - Fundaments
The Aspect System, Part 2 - Aspects
The Aspect System, Part 3 - Alignments

Though parts of it may make mentions about not being Golden Sun exactly, everything is taken straight from Golden Sun save the alignment system (part 3).  The alignment system is my own thing.  To me, a Dark Adept is someone who is either of the Dusk, Nadir, or Eclipse affinities.  You cannot literally wield darkness, though.  Haures and Charon are Venus elemental, and all of the Chaos Chimera's "dark abilities" were elemental in nature.

I do like how you prefer Psionics, but look at it this way.  Kung Fu is still Kung Fu, but it's a style of Martial Arts.  Psynergy is still Psynergy, but it's a style of Psionics.
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« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2014, 03:12:33 AM »

as it turns out, I hate reading.  Sing me a song or something.  Or at least post a two sentence wrap up.

Quote
To me, a Dark Adept is someone who is either of the Dusk, Nadir, or Eclipse affinities.  You cannot literally wield darkness, though.  Haures and Charon are Venus elemental, and all of the Chaos Chimera's "dark abilities" were elemental in nature.

ok, so you've got an affinity system, which I presume is because the world is composed of those components, and different people resonate differently with those components...

If that's the case, is it something you brought up in "why do Adepts exist?"  Seems like the perfect place for it.

(reading now, and hating every second of it)

(neat web design though, I can see why you'd want to show it off)
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« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2014, 03:32:25 AM »

You're speaking to the High Mistress of Text Walls.  Reading is simply a part of interacting with me, I'm afraid.  Adepts exist because they do - the same reason magicians exist in worlds of high fantasy, and scientists in worlds of science and technology.  There really doesn't need to be a reason for them to exist - if nothing else, you can say it's a natural part of existence in this world.  Because, well... it kind of is in Weyard.

Light and Dark adepts, however, even with Dark Dawn have nearly zero support to their existence.  Blados and Chalis never once use a dark spell on you, and their Dark Barrier seems to follow the rules of using equipment as an item (zero PP cost, multiple uses).  Every instance of dark manipulation can be attributed to machines, bethey big or small.  All dark-themed attacks the Chaos Chimera use are associated with an element, as are Haures and Charon, the dark summons.

Light just has some nameless kid who says he can use light in the epilogue, but even then that just makes him a strong candidate for a Celestial Energy user, considering the heavy Jovian influence that seems to be going on in Belinsk and other places with werewolves.  Furthermore, we have examples of three different elements using light to attack - Venus vis Crystallux, a Crystal Aspect summon.  Mars through Iris, a Flame aspect summon.  And Jupiter through, like, every other Jupiter unleash.  No, seriously.  Light Surge, Void Beam, etc.  The only one that doesn't have an in-game example is Mercury, but simple Light Refraction can allow it to pull that off too.

Simply put, Light and Darkness have always been done through the four elements, and do not have an associated stat or djinn.  As such, one could easily argue that the Fundaments can't be used like the elements, but rather give shape to the elements instead.  That is why I came up with Aspect Theory - that there is a Light, Pure, and Dark form for all four elements.




Frustrating?  Hell yes, it's frustrating.  Even people like me who'd have preferred light and dark to never even show up in GS would have preferred it if they went ahead and gave them full element treatment, but they didn't do that.  They just... said they exist, and didn't expand on it or explain it at all.
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« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2014, 04:11:58 AM »

Alright, so I guess there's

> The Grave Eclipse (which interferes with energy from "sol")
> The Mourning Moon (a giant psy energy votex)

> The Apollo Lense (which channels the light energy from... the sun? or "sol?")
> The Golden Sun  (an abundance of psy energy)

The parallels seem neat enough.  Dark Monsters spawn in the shadow of the Grave Eclipse, except near the presence of alchemy engines, such as the Well in Ayuthay, the Forge in Passaj, and the Lights in Harapa (activated by the Well and the Forge).  What's curious then is why dark monsters don't always appear in dark places.  Underground, for instance, or Tanglewood forest after dark (the starting dungeon in Dark Dawn).  It stands to reason that creatures that are found in those dark places are already evolutions of what the dark creatures of the grave eclipse may have turned into.

At least that's my working theory until I fact check some more.  But if true, we can identify dark powers by looking at all the monsters one would fight underground.

Also, this implies some things about Weyard, that

1.  The presence of evil energy is the default state, and is actively countered by sol.
2.  Alchemy is a light that can withstand the darkness, similar to sol.

3.  The absence of light energy (and the default presence of dark energy) causes creatures to involve in one way.
4.  The presence of light energy causes evolution in another way.

Also,

5. It supports Luna Blades (?) fan fics of evil creatures being found underground.
6. It supports my fan fic that whatever's under Weyard is a dark, dark place. (I'm talking about the entire planet here)

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« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2014, 04:17:57 AM »

Sorry, my previous post was in response to this tidbit from your blog

Quote

Before Dark Dawn, Light and Darkness were symbolic and nothing else.  Sol seems to symbolize Alchemy, and Luna seemed to almost symbolize the Absence Of or Seal Upon Alchemy.  Dark Dawn threw all that out the window by making them actual things.


Basically, I see no reason why Dark Dawn changed the fundamental presence/absence of alchemy concept.  I think my previous post argues that it boils down to "sol" vs. "absence of sol"

Because dark energy is already everywhere, and already pervades much of the planet.  It seems to me that the story of Golden Sun is a story of a world that's lost to darkness, with Weyard being one of the last (if not the only) bastions of humanity left, kept alive by an artificial harnessing of celestial energy.
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« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2014, 04:22:26 AM »

Dark and Light are neither good nor evil.  Both have the potential to help and hender the party, and do in DD.  Darkness is needed to be protected from the intense light of the Apollo Sanctum, but also encouraged rapid evolution in monsters.  Light kept monsters at a weaker level of power, but also was very dangerous to the party in the Apollo Sanctum.

It's the behavior and presentation of light and dark that interests me, though - after analyzing it, I came to the conclusion that Light is a force of Order, while Darkness was a force of Chaos, as I outlined in the first part of my theory/system.  All of those things were deduced from observations in DD - until Camelot themselves say otherwise, I'll have hard time seeing it any other way.


Also, I don't know how much of GS you have played, but I pray it's not just DD.  GS has a habit of using shades of gray - nothing is truely good or evil.  The main villains of the first game?  Trying to save the world.  And you killed them.  You monster.  Golden Sun very much enjoys doing that - setting something up to look one way, but in reality it may be quite different.  Look at Babi, for instance.  In TBS, he was portrayed in a good light as a likable man.  You had to sit and think about it to realize the guy's a freaking dictator.  Later on, in the Lost Age, you start to find out how bad he really is.

If you've got a force that is for sure evil, I highly recommend it not be a Golden Sun story, as I guarantee you even B&C had very good reasons for wanting to attack their own country with the Apollo Cannon - perhaps to open a rebellion against an oppressive emperor, for instance.  To fight for the freedom of their people.  We still don't know Alex's motives, but something tells me he knows something's coming, and all this questing for power is to try and be able to oppose it, ala Magus from Chrono Trigger.




@Reply:  No, before they were mere symbols.  They didn't have a literal form, they were just purely symbolic.  DD made them substantial - made them an actual part of the world, rather than symbols.  It's the difference between using the Bible as a symbol for faith, and using the Bible as a book.  One is a symbol.  The other is a thing.
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« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2014, 06:21:18 AM »

But the relationship between the symbols haven't changed.  Darkness is still the absence or counter of alchemy, and Light is still the presence of alchemy.  Literally, AND symbolically.  It seems that Dark Dawn has *added* to the lore in a way that makes sense, without changing what was once known.

That the alchemy engines keep away the Grave Eclipse monsters shows that alchemy is a force similar to sol, and so the light energy we see in Dark Dawn isn't something we hadn't already seen before through the Golden Sun event.  This challenges your previous assertion that they're different.  And if they're not different, then doesn't that solve all problems?


Also, I don't know how much of GS you have played, but I pray it's not just DD.


It's totally just DD.  But I'm familiar with the 'gray area' theme of the series, and the stuff you mentioned.

Quote
If you've got a force that is for sure evil, I highly recommend it not be a Golden Sun story, as I guarantee you even B&C had very good reasons for wanting to attack their own country with the Apollo Cannon - perhaps to open a rebellion against an oppressive emperor, for instance.  To fight for the freedom of their people.  We still don't know Alex's motives, but something tells me he knows something's coming, and all this questing for power is to try and be able to oppose it, ala Magus from Chrono Trigger.

See, here you've gone from talking about a force of energy (like light or dark), to talking about people.  Which is nice, but irrelevant to the conversation, no?  I don't disagree with anything you've said, and you are not longer talking about any of the things I've said.  I agree that Dark and Light are neither good nor evil.  

But mankind cannot live in the darkness, just as it could not brave the light of the sol sanctum.  These are not moral claims, just factual statements.

Quote

It seems to me that the story of Golden Sun is a story of a world that's lost to darkness, with Weyard being one of the last (if not the only) bastions of humanity left, kept alive by an artificial harnessing of celestial energy.


^ See?  I didn't use the word good nor evil once.

And I didn't say there wasn't a cost to harnessing celestial power... I thought that was implied, given all we already know about the series.
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« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2014, 12:52:18 PM »

1:  ...Um, no.  No it's not.  It's far from that.  It took alchemy for both Dark and Light in Dark Dawn, and both are a part of alchemy in their own way.  They are not symbolic at all anymore.
2:  Well, that certainly explains a lot.  Okay, stop now and play the first two.  Before you do anything else.
3:  I'm making a point about Good and Evil in the GS series after your mention of "Evil Energy"
4:  Still pretty sure you referenced Evil Energy having a default state, referring to darkness.
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« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2014, 07:52:26 PM »

1:  ...Um, no.  No it's not.  It's far from that.  It took alchemy for both Dark and Light in Dark Dawn, and both are a part of alchemy in their own way.  They are not symbolic at all anymore.
2:  Well, that certainly explains a lot.  Okay, stop now and play the first two.  Before you do anything else.
3:  I'm making a point about Good and Evil in the GS series after your mention of "Evil Energy"
4:  Still pretty sure you referenced Evil Energy having a default state, referring to darkness.
1.  The only potentially new kind of alchemy was from Luna Tower, and it's debatable as to whether it radiated out a different kind of energy, a barrier to sol energy, or a filter for sol energy.
2. Nope.
3. Ctrl + F.  Search for when I mentioned 'evil energy'
4. Yes, I did reference that darkness was the default state, which, as an aside, is not uncommon in the world's mythologies, and neither do most of those mythologies describe the unnatural as evil.

Question: are there any issues with the entry on
http://goldensunwiki.net/Grave_Eclipse
?

It seems that Luna Tower limits sol, but I'm not sure if the dark energy output is a side effect of how Luna Tower works, or if it's just the absence of sol. If it's the former, then Dark Energy exists precisely to absorb and store light, as sort of pseudo (but not infinite) vortexes.  But then isn't it still basically the absence of psy energy?

We have another point of data on light and dark energy, and that is how it feels to people.  Dark energy feels like evil energy, whereas light energy seems to make people feel good.  Is this basically the DnD thing of channeling positive and negative energy?  Whereas as the other stuff is just arcane?

We have skeleton warriors, don't we?

Argh, I know this is too simple, but I gotta go. Later.  Feel free to disagree.  It's just a step in the conversation, and even I don't agree with it.  But we gotta walk the walk.
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« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2014, 12:03:27 AM »

We normally try to avoid doing this kind of thing, but the last several posts I've made have been based on the following:

Alright, so I guess there's

> The Grave Eclipse (which interferes with energy from "sol")
> The Mourning Moon (a giant psy energy votex)


> The Apollo Lense (which channels the light energy from... the sun? or "sol?")
> The Golden Sun  (an abundance of psy energy)


The parallels seem neat enough.  Dark Monsters spawn in the shadow of the Grave Eclipse, except near the presence of alchemy engines, such as the Well in Ayuthay, the Forge in Passaj, and the Lights in Harapa (activated by the Well and the Forge).  What's curious then is why dark monsters don't always appear in dark places.  Underground, for instance, or Tanglewood forest after dark (the starting dungeon in Dark Dawn).  It stands to reason that creatures that are found in those dark places are already evolutions of what the dark creatures of the grave eclipse may have turned into.

At least that's my working theory until I fact check some more.  But if true, we can identify dark powers by looking at all the monsters one would fight underground.

Also, this implies some things about Weyard, that

1.  The presence of evil energy is the default state, and is actively countered by sol.
2.  Alchemy is a light that can withstand the darkness, similar to sol.

3.  The absence of light energy (and the default presence of dark energy) causes creatures to involve in one way.
4.  The presence of light energy causes evolution in another way.

Also,

5. It supports Luna Blades (?) fan fics of evil creatures being found underground.
6. It supports my fan fic that whatever's under Weyard is a dark, dark place. (I'm talking about the entire planet here)



Let's be more focused here.  One color at a time.

Red: At no point in the game were the psynergy vortexes implied to be the same as darkness.  In fact, one can argue that the Mourning Moon and the Grave Eclipse are fundamentally different events.  Their behaviors do not match up - one drains alchemy from a large area.  The other empowers creatures due to the rapid absorption of light by the Eclipse Tower.  One weakens, another strengthens.  My argument is that both Darkness and Light would be opposing forces to the Psy Vortexes, if we look at them on a functional level.

Orange:  First, stop spelling it that way.  Psionics is the super-category.  Below that are things like Telekinetics, Psychokenetics, and Psynergetics.  It's a type of Psionic casting, there's no reason to do that.  It's like saying you want to call it Karartial Arts because you think Karate just isn't up to snuff compared to the Martial Arts supercategory that it's filed under.  Also because you're driving my OCD up a wall.  Second, the Golden Sun every much NOT Sol/Light.  It is raw elemental energy, and light and darkness were very clearly said to be NOT ELEMENTS - the fundaments are separate, but similar in nature according to Kraden in Belinsk.  This means that by it's very nature, the Golden Sun, the pure essence of the four elements coalesced into a single event, cannot be light by Dark Dawn's own lore.  Play the first two games to get a better understanding - don't just say no to them.  You need to play them to have a solid understanding of the series.

Yellow is hard to read, so Green:  Oh, I can clear that one up.  It's the difference between Darkness and Shadow.  Darkness in the traditional sense is the absence of light, while shadow is simply light being blocked.  An argument could also be made that darkness (lowercase d, or shadow) in and of itself isn't what grants that hyper-evolution to monsters, but rather fundamental Darkness (capital D, or Luna) is.  Monsters are stronger at night/in caves because of a similar function to how Mars would have greater power in a hot desert, or water would be stronger in a frozen tundra.  However, dark monsters in and of themselves wouldn't be found because they'd need a literal infusion of darkness for that spurt in evolution - something that the Grave Eclipse provided.

Blue:
Quote
3. Ctrl + F.  Search for when I mentioned 'evil energy'
Quote
1.  The presence of evil energy is the default state, and is actively countered by sol.
There you go.  You're equating darkness with evil.  This may have been a Freudian Slip of sorts and not what you meant to type, but it gives a lot of insight as to how you're approaching darkness itself.  Thus why I made that check against associating anything with good or evil.

Purple:  Mind if I ask you something?  How did the monsters in the Apollo Sanctum (the only place we have with strong light energies) evolve?




Also, would like to point out that Golden Sun most certainly does not work like D&D.  Radiant and Necrotic damage do not exist, nor does Anarchic or Axiomatic.  Instead, they are associated with the elements.  Crystallux, Iris, and various Jupiter Unleashes look like Radiant Damage, but are of the arcane elements.  Sonic/Thunder is instead associated with various of the arcane elements.  Psionic damage doesn't exist, because it's arcane elemental.  Poison damage is again, arcane elemental.  Notice the pattern here?  All character classes?  Arcane casters.  Yup - there's only the arcane in this world.
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« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2014, 11:04:56 AM »

Quote
Red: At no point in the game were the psynergy vortexes implied to be the same as darkness.

And neither do I, which is why they are separate bullets. 

Many on your points are interesting, but overall you seem to be in the habit of misinterpreting people so that you can have the satisfaction and believing they're wrong (and that you corrected them).  And I can see how this will become increasingly irritating as time goes on, and I'm going to disengage from the conversation.
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« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2014, 01:14:34 PM »

...You are way off from what I'm like.  While yes, I do have trouble understanding certain points of view at times, I don't think this is one of them, and I don't get any "satisfaction from proving you wrong".  Your presentation of your points groups them together in certain ways, thus giving out implications of related features.  Had you not spaced them separately from the "light" things it wouldn't have been much of anything, and running away from the debate and namecalling isn't going to convince anyone one way or another.  The way you present light and dark seems to heavily imply that light is the good force and darkness is the evil force, even if you don't mean to write it that way.  I think your comparison to D&D's Radiant and Necrotic damage types (4e versions of Positive and Negative energy) are proof of that - they're fundamentally differnt styles of energy than the, er, fundaments in GS.
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« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2014, 09:48:32 AM »


> The Grave Eclipse (which interferes with energy from "sol")
> The Mourning Moon (a giant psy energy votex)


> The Apollo Lense (which channels the light energy from... the sun? or "sol?")
> The Golden Sun  (an abundance of psy energy)


Grave Moon and Apollo Lens
> The Grave Eclipse: Which interferes with energy from "sol"
> The Apollo Lenses: Which channels the light energy from "sol"

Mourning Moon and Golden Sun
> The Mourning Moon: A giant psy energy votex
> The Golden Sun: An abundance of psy energy


At least that's my working theory until I fact check some more.  But if true, we can identify dark powers by looking at all the monsters one would fight underground.

Also, this implies some things about Weyard, that

1.  The presence of evil energy is the default state, and is actively countered by sol.
2.  Alchemy is a light that can withstand the darkness, similar to sol.

3.  The absence of light energy (and the default presence of dark energy) causes creatures to involve in one way.
4.  The presence of light energy causes evolution in another way.

Also,

5. It supports Luna Blades (?) fan fics of evil creatures being found underground.
6. It supports my fan fic that whatever's under Weyard is a dark, dark place. (I'm talking about the entire planet here)



This was not a Freudian slip, but me following a working theory, and exploring the ideas that come with them.  Your portrayal of my ideas are... disingenuous, to say the least.

If you're not listening to what I'm saying, and then lying about what I'm saying, what could I possibly gain from conversation with you?
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« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2014, 11:10:56 PM »

You also have to keep in mind that you have not explained this working theory to me, so anything I say that may seem disingenuous to you comes from a state of ignorance from me.  I cannot even know if I'm betraying something if I'm not even aware of its existence.  Before you start referencing a theory, you need to either post a link to said theory or explain it in full, otherwise I have no context in your meaning.

Here, we speak of light and darkness, and nowhere except there was evil energy referenced.  My assumption that you referred to darkness as evil energy came from that because that's what we were talking about.  It's why I always reference Flip Side theory and link it if able when I start discussing stuff about that, so that you know where the context is coming from.  Otherwise, any references I make to the "other side" simply seem confusing and out of place, or worse, as wholly disruptive to my own points.

Before we go any further, can I hear this idea in full so that I know what it is your referencing, so as to give a more educated analysis?
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May 01, 2018, 09:58:04 AM
Fox: I am thinking a lot of this might be because of Discord?
May 01, 2018, 09:56:08 AM
Fox: Yeah, this forum is more dead than ever before.  February and April have 0 new topics. (All other months prior have more.) And March has lowest number of new posts. (It'd be dumb to count the very first month this site was created.)
April 25, 2018, 09:02:13 PM
Fox: Yes. The best tool is a hex editor. Well.... VBA, VBA-SDL-H, no$gba Debugger, GBATEK, and my documentation.... to use these to learn how the code/data works. Best method because it maximizes your editing ability... and then there is my program gsmagic that I was working on. Still in its early stages, though. (Even after year(s).)
April 25, 2018, 04:21:58 PM
Xendrox D: *exept tla editor.
April 25, 2018, 04:21:29 PM
Xendrox D: is there any other tool for hacking gs?
April 23, 2018, 09:26:27 PM
Atrius: Rarely, but not never.
April 23, 2018, 08:01:48 AM
Drake baku: Can it be, the god who created the editor, atrius. I heard you never came back online here anymore
April 20, 2018, 02:46:36 PM
KyleRunner: Atrius!!
April 19, 2018, 11:29:46 PM
Atrius: @Fox, I tried, but for some reason Mario Golf won't boot, and Mario Tennis crashes when you patch out the text compression, and I'm not sure why...  The normal text loading functions in them are basically the same as the ones in the Golden Sun games.

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