A Notice About Unleashes...

[Rolina]

[quote author=]Well, first thing, I'd change the way unleashes work. I've never quite liked how unleashes are completely random, so I'd change them to be essentially weapon-specific psynergy attacks (or... maybe not just limit it to attacks?) that need to be charged up (with some randomisation) by doing regular attacks with the weapon. Charge requirements and maximum charges could depend on the weapon; for example you could have a weapon that (without unleash increasing equipment), on average, gains a new charge every 1.5 regular attacks, and can hold 6 shots and no PP cost for unleashes, but the unleash is fairly weak, or you could have a weapon that can only hold 1 unleash that takes 4 attacks to charge and costs 20 PP, but deals massive damage.
Charges can be kept out of battle, so you could start a boss fight with fully charged weapons.

Note that if unleashes are activated like regular psynergy, that opens up the possibility for some of them to cost PP, making them much easier to balance against regular attack psynergy. You could also have much more variation in types of unleash; currently they're basically all just damage + optional status ailment, but treat them like psynergy and you could have a weapon with a multi-target non-damaging high success-rate instant-death attack. Or even some wilder things; how about an unleash that increases all your physical damage by 20% (on top of any attack buffs) until the character is downed or the battle ends? Have it stack once and give it one charge and a high amount of hits before recharge, and you could have a weapon that's fairly meh against regular enemies but great against long boss fights (say, 6 turns and you get a 40% damage bonus)

Basically, what I'd like to see is, instead of just quantitative differences between weapons, to have qualitative difference, i.e. weapons that do completely different things. That'd be a lot more manageable if unleashes weren't just randomly occurring in the place of regular attacks.[/quote]

This got me thinking.  What if unleashes were bestowable?  As in, they're tacked onto the psynergy menu, and have PP costs and what not?

So I tested it out.  A quickie - Sol Blade BESTOWS Meggido, which now costs 99 PP to use.  Said goodbye to a good 30% of Felix's PP and BAM, Meggido.

WORKED.  LIKE.  A. CHARM.

Well, with one downside... the battle text said that Felix CASTS Meggido.  While it adds balance, there may need to be some... coding needed to cause such skills to always use the unleash text.  But think about it!  I mean, all the possibilities!  No longer are unleashes suffering the ability to only have a single target, but also not all of them have to be EPAs, either!  As he suggested, you COULD put in support unleashes!  What's more, as you could add PP costs to the unleash effects, it in effect not only balances the attack command, it freaking balances unleashes PERIOD!  Sure, you have an EPIC AWESOME attack, but it'll suck you dry to use it.  I may have to totally reconsider how I balance the weapons after seeing this... this is just... Wow, I'll probably use this in my hack!

This post has been edited by Role on Sep 8 2009, 09:58 AM

[Aile~♥]

Salanewt already succeeded in making an unleash that was not an EPA. He made the Shaman's Rod unleash Hurricane, which as you know is not an EPA. If it were, it would have done about 1 damage, because Salanewt set the Shaman's Rod to essentially set your Attack and Defence to 0.

Also, I think that the developers did unleashes the way they did for a reason. They are there as a last-resort power attack if your PP runs low. They make the "Attack" menu item actually useful.

Besides, we already knew you could make unleashes be Psynergies. Heck, you could make a weapon that unleashes Megiddo and bestows Meteor Blow if you really wanted.

This post has been edited by JamietheFlameUser on Sep 8 2009, 05:03 PM

[weckar]

hmm... I liked the randomness of Unleashes. Made me feel the RNG Goddess was with me :p

[Atrius (He/Him)]

Being able to charge them up like that would be nice, but hacking the ROM to handle that would present quite a few challenges.

[Salanewt]

Oh yeah... This is nice. Atrius is right about it requiring more coding, but there might also be a chance of one of the many unknown variables near the bottom can change the text as well. I remember giving Quake the very last variable in the bottom section? The text that would appear was "*(Enemy name)* rises to the challenge". Anyway, one of these numbers might already change the text, you just have to test it and see (I think from the second list of status effects... Then again, I doubt that it would include alternate text, but you never know).

Oh yeah, Jamie? The Shaman's Rod also bestows Thunderhead... However, it is too easy to play the game near the beginning. I might make it so only Sheba can equip it, and change her stats (so she is already weaker).

Anyway, this is pretty good Role. You should keep up the good work.

Have a nice day.
 

This post has been edited by Salanewt on Sep 8 2009, 07:59 PM

[Rolina]

Actually, the only thing you'd have to do is figure out a way to cause those specific skills to give the unleash text, rather than an actual unleash.  It'd be done in the same manner as when a monster USES a monster skill, or how the attack and defend commands have their appropriate text triggers.  However, even IF that was too far out of the way to do, it's not big loss.  The fact is, both the Attack command and the Unleashes themselves become balanced as a result.

Make the type weapon.  Have the effect "Bestows Psynergy" instead of multiple uses.  Next, switch the unleash over to the casts option.  Then go to the unleash, assign it an appropriate PP amount for the unleash, and give it an icon.  Voila!  Done!  All you've really got to worry about is figuring out a good balance of PP cost for ability.


Now, I'd agree with Jamie if it weren't for one thing... they didn't make the command so much useful as it was BROKEN.  Now, keep in mind.  This does NOT mean that you have to use one or the other.  You can use BOTH.  Just, set the unleash rate at 0, and once you get enough crit+ equipment, you have the chance of a free unleash going off, on top of being able to trigger it on command.  This makes the attack command significantly less broken, and actually gives you a chance to RUN OUT OF PP LATE GAME.  I mean, let's face it... you really don't run critically low on PP unless you're grinding levels.

But the fact remains that this is the most efficient way to balance the attack command, and to make psynergy worth considering.

@Weckar - Well, then you're gonna hate that RNG fixer that Atrius made...

@Salanewt - well, I'm not the one that gets the credit.  I just happen to have tried to implement it in a way so as to approach it as a solution... And it works.  It needs a bit of fiddling to work in a balanced method itself, but so far I think it shows a LOT of promise.

Also, what did you mean by variable?  The only variables are the animation, animation augment, Area, PP Cost, Power, Damage type, effect, and field effect...  The two unknown values I don't think are used at all...

This post has been edited by Role on Sep 8 2009, 09:03 PM

[Aile~♥]

As for Megiddo costing 99 PP, what is it's power? According to my estimates, even Cruel Ruin should only cost slightly more than 45 PP, and Megiddo should probably cost 36 PP.

And as for your idea of setting the unleash rate to zero, I like it! I probably wouldn't implement it myself, but I wouldn't mind it if it were implemented.

This post has been edited by JamietheFlameUser on Sep 9 2009, 03:29 PM

[Aile~♥]

Cruel Ruin I compared to Agatio's Meteor Blow, which is about half the strength and costs approximately 39 PP if I recall correctly. As such, Cruel Ruin should actually cost about 70 PP. My estimates were off.

[Rolina]

Meteor Blow has a base of 120, and an unknown HP% mod (no summon editor...). Costs 21 PP, according to game data.

Cruel Ruin has a base of 200, and an unknown HP% mod (no summon editor...).

Keep in mind, though, they were made so as to not one-shot your party, who will obviously have lower stats in comparison to those who use it against you.  Basically, it's game balancing at work.

The only reason meteor blow has a PP cost is to keep him from spamming it on you every turn...

But honestly... does Cruel Ruin look or feel weaker than Judgment to you?  And don't you think it hits harder than Outer Space?

Either way, you shouldn't be assigning PP costs to summons...

[Salanewt]

Why not? It would help prevent people from summon spamming bosses in my opinion.

Anyway, if anybody needs ability information (summon, not summon, etc.), I typed up a section a while ago. It includes all of the abilities that are summons or other.

Oh, what about Avimander's Star Mine? I think that also has a PP cost.

Have a nice day.
   

[Rolina]

Think about how summons are used.  Adding PP cost does NOTHING.  Just as if your weapon unleashed a PP costing spell like plasma, it will cost NOTHING to use.  You'd need to make a summoner class.  If you want that, go play Final Fantasy.

[Aile~♥]

I was thinking, what if you wanted a class that had Meteor Blow and Rising Dragon, or an item that bestowed them? What if, like you said about unleashes, you wanted Cruel Ruin bestowed? Besides, then Doom Dragon wouldn't quite be able to use Cruel Ruin every second turn without some Psy Boosts in between. Of course, I would then have to buff it's attack power.

If Meteor Blow costs 21, then my earlier estimate of Cruel Ruin costing about 45-50 was correct. That would also make it the most expensive Psynergy in the game. But, I would probably leave it at 60, that way it takes 3 Psy Boosts to make up for a Cruel Ruin, so Doom Dragon could spend 3 of its 4 turns (over two rounds) on Psy Boosts, then use Cruel Ruin on the 4th Turn.

This post has been edited by JamietheFlameUser on Sep 11 2009, 07:20 PM

[Rolina]

First, Cruel Ruin is a SUMMON.  It's not comparable.

Second, Meggido == Venus Call Dullahan in power... BUT, it's not limited by class or level, and can be used with classes with MUCH higher attack and Venus Power.  Basically, less restricting, so more costly.

Besides, Call Dullahan is too cheap for what it does... 3x Jupiter damage to target foe.

That, and it was just an example...  The actual cost is up for debate and testing.


Now, imo...

It's best to have them bestow the unleash as if it were a psynergy. You'd have to keep extra effects like sleep and HP drain in mind when assigning PP cost, though, so don't forget that they're not all added damage types. Some, such as Sylph Rapier, Sonic Blade, and Sol Blade, are multipliers, too, so adjust accordingly.

When rebalancing, keep some of the less broken unleashes in the unleash ability, too. Just set the unleash rate to 0%. Basically, if you have Crit+ equipment on, there's a chance for a 'free unleash'. HOWEVER... for some of the more... broken weapons, you could add less broken versions of the unleashes (convert to the average damage formula for unleashes - added power = 35% of attack power). Heck, a TNS came up with a really good idea, too. You could PENALIZE unleashes for some weapons... Granted, he used an FF reference, but it's a good idea:

XYZ's Excalibur
let's out a howl! Excalipoor!

Target takes 10 damage!

Essentially, it's an attack multiplier value of 1 (deals 10% damage) and is non-elemental.

Basically, some weapons that used to have great unleashes, could now have great 'bestowed unleashes' and HORRIBLE 'attack unleashes'. Also, for some multi-target 'bestowed unleashes' you make, by having it 'attack unleash', you limit its power. For example, even if you have a weapon unleash Cruel Ruin, it can still ONLY ATTACK A SINGLE ENEMY with it. I've tested it, so you could just have it bestow and add the 0% unleash rate, but the actual 'attack-type unleash', should you be using crit+ equipment, is still weaker than the one that costs PP.

So long as you keep anything godly from utilizing the 99% setup, it should be fine. Just dock some of the unleash rates - In fact, I'd say that the most a piece of armor should boost it is by 5%. Maybe have Hyper Boots and Ninja Tabi give 10%, and you should be good. Basically, the idea is to try to limit the max unleash rate to the old base 35% tops, and to actually DISCOURAGE boosting unleashes on some weapons, to NERF 'attack type' unleahses (making a totally new ability, same name, but instead of a multiplier, it's just a standard added damage type), and you should be good.

This post has been edited by Role on Sep 11 2009, 12:25 PM

[Rolina]

...Castable summons should NOT be used.  As summons do HP% damage, the ability to cast at will makes it too broken.

Right now, summon rushing is so crippling if it fails BECAUSE of the fact that you don't just take a hit to PP, but to ALL stats.  Summon rushing over link gets you really dead really fast.  Drop the castng cost to PP only, and it becomes broken.

[Rolina]

No problem. <3

This is an awesome way to implement unleashes.  Make some of them multi-targeting, give them all PP costs, and then drop the unleash rate to 0%.  Make sure that the unleash is in both the 'use for xyz' slot and the 'unleashes xyz' slot - 'use for' will grant it as psynergy.  As for the unleash, if you have unleash boosting equipment, you now have a chance for a free, single-target unleash.

The credit for the idea, however, goes to LBoksha.

This post has been edited by Role on Sep 25 2009, 01:12 AM

[Salanewt]

Right now, summon rushing is so crippling if it fails BECAUSE of the fact that you don't just take a hit to PP, but to ALL stats.

It would, but what if you were to somehow find a way to lower both PP and stats? You never can tell what the future brings though.

As for your last post... Nice explanation, thanks.

Have a nice day.
   

[Lv11]

Make the type weapon. Have the effect "Bestows Psynergy" instead of multiple uses. Next, switch the unleash over to the casts option. Then go to the unleash, assign it an appropriate PP amount for the unleash, and give it an icon. Voila! Done! All you've really got to worry about is figuring out a good balance of PP cost for ability.

Oh lord, I am so glad I read this thread.
I would have never even thought this was possible.
Thanks, Role~

[Lv11]

I messed around with the Bestows Psynergy attribute for a while last night, and it was pretty nifty.  But I'm curious, does anyone know what Item will change does?
From my tests last night it seems to have the same effect as Multiple Uses, so maybe it's an unused attribute?
I was really hoping the item would actually change when I used it mid-battle ;__;
I skimmed through the list of items quickly and didn't see any that actually uses it.

[Aile~♥]

Hermes' Water is the only item that uses that, as it changes to an Empty Bottle when used.

[Salanewt]

Hermes' Water is the only item that uses that, as it changes to an Empty Bottle when used.

I thought that the Mythril Bags have that as well? I might be wrong, but they do transform when you have cast the stars into the lighthouses (well, at least it does for Jupiter Lighthouse).

Have a nice day.
 

Wait, I thought we were talking about unleashes? Anyway, perhaps we can give a Mercury Djinni Hermes' water to use in battle, and one or two of them have a 100% chance of dropping it. It would almost be like an unleash, even though it is an item instead.