Golden Sun Hacking Community
February 20, 2020, 12:21:10 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
  Home   Forum   DC Wiki Help Search Calendar Downloads Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Hello  (Read 11262 times)
0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.
Baransu
Guest
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2017, 01:40:38 AM »

Squirtle: My intention with equiment was to make the choice a lot more complex than just picking whatever has the highest attack value at the time. Which is why I opted the give the weapon types a variety of effects to encourage people to swap around the djinn and equipment to suit their current equipment pool.

While the data isn't quite finalized as yet, so far I'm looking at something like this in the end
Sol Blade: 180 Atk, Pure Earth
Herculean Axe: 193 Atk, -10 Def
Lachesis Rule: 147 Atk, 118 Int, 25 Power
Tisiphone Edge: 163 Atk, 48 Int, 8 Def, 4 Agi
Clotho's Distaff: 139 Atk, 97 Int, 12 PP, 25 Resist
Vajra Mace: 171 Atk, 20 HP, 26 Int, 15 Power, 10 Resist

The idea here would be that swords are the safe weapon with no real perks or downsides but they'd be optimal for persons who wanted to run an unleash set up since they'd get a higher unleash cap/better unleashes in exchange. Axes are the strongest weapon type overall but you'd need to use slower classes with high defensive modifiers to offset the defense penalty. Blades are a generalist weapon for classes like Ninja which carry high level spells so that warriors could get a decent damage boost on their spells.

For the remaining weapons, Maces would play a similar role to that of blades in that Sheba/Mia can use them to cover a little bit of everything with a defensive perk. Staves are simple beat stick weapons for players who want to use dedicated magic offense classes like Warlock. Ankhs on the other hand are best for healing classes since they boost PP to squeeze out more healers and Int for better damage against mooks.

I haven't quite decided how I want to scale unleashes since after a while the game tends to shift towards multipliers and I definitely have to tone them down a bit so that offensive spell casters stay relevant. Maybe if physical attackers have higher burst damage but mages are better for consistent offense.
Logged
Salanewt
His Sexiness
Global Moderator

Oh yeah, baby!

Prodigy
*

Coins: 200
Offline Offline

I am: A part of the organization of Cool Cats, but more of a dog person in reality.
Emblems: Have a nice day.
Posts: 4594

« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2017, 05:55:28 PM »

Equipment choices: That sounds a lot like my approach to weapon balance, even down to making light blades more likely to boost agility and axes dropping defence!


Multipliers/unleashes: Well, there is an Intellect-based multiplier formula if you also want to use that but I agree about toning down multipliers regardless, at least based off what you have been saying about your goals.
Logged

Oh yeah baby, £ me harder.

Fusion is just a cheap tactic to make weak Adepts stronger.

Yoshi's Lighthouse is a hacking website in progress. Why not check it out if you like Yoshi or the Mario & Luigi games?
View Profile WWW
leaf
Potions class is starting
Venus Clan

Death Eater+Grass Snake = Snake Eater? SNAAAAAAAKE

Veteran Member
*

Coins: 11
Offline Offline

Posts: 1322

« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2017, 09:11:14 PM »

Quote
Sol Blade: 180 Atk, Pure Earth
Herculean Axe: 193 Atk, -10 Def

These are effectively the same weapon. Neither the damage nor the defense will make an especially big difference on the axe, such that the player will barely notice it. If the player is using an unleash setup, it's purely about whichever has the bigger unleash. Otherwise, if the player is predominately casting Call Dullahan (or similar), they're the same weapon.

Quote
Lachesis Rule: 147 Atk, 118 Int, 25 Power

This is the default choice for any caster. No other item you listed comes even close to competing with it. Highest Int *and* the highest EPow rating makes it a no-brainer, regardless of whether your role is damage or healing. For a caster item, it also delivers pretty respectable Atk.

Quote
Tisiphone Edge: 163 Atk, 48 Int, 8 Def, 4 Agi
Vajra Mace: 171 Atk, 20 HP, 26 Int, 15 Power, 10 Resist

Most of the extra stats on these items are irrelevant. The Vajra Mace is able to compete with Sol Blade or Herculean Axe, since it's a minimal loss of Atk but gives EPow. Tisiphone Edge is only relevant to Ivan (if you want to spec him as a physical attacker, since he can't equip anything better here); it could be relevant to more characters if the Agi is relevant, but I don't know how you're planning to scale Agility in this hack, so I'm not sure if 4 is a lot or a little.

Quote
Clotho's Distaff: 139 Atk, 97 Int, 12 PP, 25 Resist

This item doesn't exist. It's completely outclassed by every other weapon listed. Unless you're going the disgaea route and making healing based on res, this item offers nothing to anyone.

---

Functionally, you only have two weapons here, possibly three: A caster item in Lachesis' Rule, a melee weapon in Sol Blade/Herculean Axe/Vajra Mace, and possibly an agility-boosting weapon in the Tisiphone Edge. That's *if* the agility is a meaningful amount, otherwise it's just another melee weapon that you only pick because it's all you have left.

Based on your rationale for the items, this is how I'd fix it:

Sol Blade: 180 -> 190 Atk, Pure Earth
-- This will act as our baseline. Since I didn't like the way the ratios were working out with some of the other items (especially the axe), I opted to raise its Atk slightly.
Herculean Axe: 193 -> 230 Atk, -10 -> -40 Def
-- This is by far the greatest physical damage weapon, but you should feel that defense drop. Axes should cause you to lose almost a full piece of armor, but grant that same amount as additional Atk over a Long Sword.
Lachesis' Rule: 147 Atk, 118 Int, 25 Power
-- Untouched, since other items got more powerful around it. This remains the go-to item for a pure caster. Note that the EPow on this weapon boosts its damage further, while also improving healing.
Tisiphone Edge: 163 -> 173 Atk, 48 Int, 8 -> 0 Def, 4 -> 12 Agi*
-- Cutting out the pointless defense, and raising its Atk to make it a better contender as a physical option for mages. More agility to make the stat meaningful.
Clotho's Distaff: 139 Atk, 97 -> 92 Int, 12 -> 120 PP, 25 Resist
-- Yes, you read that right. That says 12 to *120* PP. With the incredibly low offensive stats on this item, it needs to provide hella fuel.
Vajra Mace: 171 Atk, 20 -> 108 HP, 26 -> 40 Int, 15 -> 0 Power, 10 -> 0 Resist
-- Cutting the pow/res since it didn't do much to create an identity for the item. Provides slightly weaker offense than a light blade and doesn't give agility, but makes up for it with some hefty bulk. I picked 108 for thematic reasons, but it comes out to be about right for an endgame weapon like this.

* (The agility on Tisiphone Edge assumes an average party agility of around 80-100 at endgame. If you're using a higher or lower average agility for characters, it should be set proportionately.)

The point of these modifications was to sharpen the identities of the items. Light Blade damage was brought up to be on par with Maces, since both weapon types serve the purpose of helping a caster spec into physical damage, but only Mia/Sheba can use maces, while only Jenna/Ivan can use light blades. Lachesis' Rule is untouched since the power of other items went up around it; if I had instead opted to leave Sol Blade alone and nerf the damage on Maces down to the level of Light Blades, it probably would've lost somewhere around 10-15 Atk. Despite the pretty massive stat buffs to Agility or HP on LBs/Maces, the Sol Blade should still be plenty attractive to primarily physical damage dealers, provided that Long Swords get generally stronger unleashes.

Don't be afraid to give items a unique niche. If you water down their stats too much, they just become more of the same, and you still just end up choosing whatever gives the best damage.

edit: Also, I think it's a mistake to add the "has innate attack attribute" to all weapons of a specific weapon type (e.g. making all Long Swords have an innate elemental attribute on attack, like you do here). That's predominately used to add flavor to certain weapons, and you miss out on the opportunity to do some really cool stuff with other weapon types. Of note, it barely even factors into the power of a weapon at endgame, since if you're using the Attack command, you're probably going for an unleash anyway; it can factor into the power of weapons earlier in the game (when you don't have a very high crit chance yet), but that can easily be accounted for by just knocking a couple points off Atk, if you even choose to do that much.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2017, 09:37:46 PM by leaf » Logged

Spoiler for quotes:
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O
View Profile
Baransu
Guest
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2017, 10:24:28 PM »

I like the idea about the Clotho Distaff giving a lot of PP as a boost to make it more attractive to healers and Pure Wish spamming is going to be quite costly so they'd need the PP. I'd probably halve the boost on the Vajra Mace or something just to keep HP from spiraling out of control earlier. With regards to the pure element gimmick, I can see where you're coming from with that so I'll leave it primarily for forged items and other special one off cases. My biggest problem with the weapons was figuring out a comfortable ratio for their stats so I kind of just went with what felt right.

Statistically at Level 59, we're looking at this for the cast:

Isaac: 479 HP, 167 PP, 229 Atk, 100 Def, 225 Int, 53 Agi
Garet: 509 HP, 161 PP, 234 Atk, 109 Def, 217 Int, 43 Agi
Ivan: 448 HP, 194 PP, 214 Atk, 99 Def, 243 Int, 64 Agi
Mia: 467 HP, 193 PP, 222 Atk, 102 Def, 235 Int, 50 Agi

Felix: 493 HP, 162 PP, 236 Atk, 101 Def, 213 Int, 51 Agi
Jenna: 473 HP, 180 PP, 224 Atk, 100 Def, 231 Int, 56 Agi
Sheba: 455 HP, 198 PP, 216 Atk, 97 Def, 239 Int, 60 Agi
Piers: 490 HP, 169 PP, 227 Atk, 105 Def, 221 Int, 46 Agi

Isaac and Jenna are the base line for physical and magical characters respectively as they're the balanced ones leaning towards their respective fields. Piers and Mia are a bit more focused than Isaac/Jenna respectively and they have pretty good defense (Piers places 2nd and Mia places 3rd at 99). The remaining characters are meant to be dedicated in their respective fields. Everyone's agility stats are roughly a quarter of what was used in the original scale. I'll probably need to shake up the stats around a lot since the party is very close to each other base statwise (particularly Int which is weighted 4:1 and defense where the stat gaps are pretty tiny).
Logged
leaf
Potions class is starting
Venus Clan

Death Eater+Grass Snake = Snake Eater? SNAAAAAAAKE

Veteran Member
*

Coins: 11
Offline Offline

Posts: 1322

« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2017, 10:59:12 PM »

I'd probably place the HP bonus for maces somewhere in the low 70s at JLH, and just under 50 at poseidon. The first mace in the game should prob give about 10. That should give you some decent points to scale from. Endgame GS1 would prob be about 50 as well. That may sound like it's scaling too much at endgame, but remember that endgame items tend to have a massive power spike in TLA, and that GS1 endgame power tends to be about equal to the end of the eastern sea in TLA.

As for the character stats, don't forget that class bonuses are a thing. The bulk of character differentiation comes from classes and equipment. Even if two characters have very similar base stats, having a 160% modifier for a stat on one but only 130% on the other is going to create a huge disparity between their observed stats.

edit: I think +12 agility for the end tier LB is prob fine on that scale, maybe drop it down to +10. I was thinking about agility values post-class bonus when I mentioned the average being 80-100.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2017, 02:15:30 AM by leaf » Logged

Spoiler for quotes:
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O
View Profile
Baransu
Guest
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2017, 05:41:43 AM »

Took your suggestions in mind and did some tweaking. Here's some breakpoint weapons that i'm looking at.

-Early Game
Long Sword: 14 Atk
Short Sword: 8 Atk, 3 Int, 1 Agi
Mace: 6 Atk, 4 HP, 2 Int
Wooden Stick: 4 Atk, 8 Int
Shaman's Rod: 10 Atk, 4 Int, 4 PP

-Early Eastern Sea
Robber's Blade: 106 Atk
Mystery Blade: 88 Atk, 24 Int, 6 Agi
Grevious Mace: 84 Atk, 24 HP, 20 Int
Giant Axe: 125 Atk, -22 Def
Cloud Wand: 74 Atk, 62 Int, 10 Power, Water
Angelic Ankh: 77 Atk, 48 Int, 24 PP, 12 Resist

-Lemuria (I'll need to tweak the Corsair's Edge and Hagbone Mace a bit to suit this step)
Hestia Blade: 127 Atk
Sylph Rapier: 106 Atk, 31 Int, 8 Agi, Wind
Thanatos Mace: 108 Atk, 31 HP, 28 Int
Mighty Axe: 156 Atk, -27 Def
Dracomace: 91 Atk, 77 Int, 12 Power
Fireman's Pole: 110 Atk, 64 Int, 32 PP

-Reunion
Gaia Blade: 135 Atk, Earth
Phaeton's Blade: 137 Atk, 39 Int, 10 Agi
Wicked Mace: 133 Atk, 43 HP, 36 Int
Demon Axe: 171 Atk, -33 Def
Goblin's Rod: 108 Atk, 90 Int, 15 Power
Meditation Rod: 127 Atk, 80 Int, 40 PP

-Endgame
Sol Blade: 180 Atk, Earth
Tisiphone Edge: 165 Atk, 12 Agi, 48 Int
Vajra Mace: 161 Atk, 48 HP, 40 Int
Herculean Axe: 220 Atk, -42 Def
Lachesis Rule: 147 Int, 118 Int, 25 Power
Clotho's Distaff: 156 Atk, 96 Int, 48 PP
Logged
leaf
Potions class is starting
Venus Clan

Death Eater+Grass Snake = Snake Eater? SNAAAAAAAKE

Veteran Member
*

Coins: 11
Offline Offline

Posts: 1322

« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2017, 09:09:39 AM »

I see you went with nerfing the other items down and bumping up the damage on clothos so you don't have to give it such a ridiculous amount of PP. Seems like a good approach. The damage distributions look pretty reasonable, but HP still feels undertuned. PP is probably fine.

HP values could probably be set via a formula like... HP = 1.4 * Int, and break formula at endgame. Also, the rusty staff weapons seem to have extremely low Atk for some reason, and are pretty much wholly outclassed by ankhs as they are; a small bump to their Atk would remedy this.

Early eastern sea
Grevious Mace: 84 Atk, 24 -> 28 HP, 20 Int

Lemuria
Thanatos Mace: 108 Atk, 31 -> 39 HP, 28 Int
Dracomace: 91 -> 99 Atk, 77 Int, 12 Power
Fireman's Pole: 110 Atk, 64 Int, 32 PP [unchanged - just here for reference]

Reunion
Wicked Mace: 133 Atk, 43 -> 50 HP, 36 Int
Goblin's Rod: 108 -> 117 Atk, 90 Int, 15 Power
Meditation Rod: 127 Atk, 80 Int, 40 PP [unchanged - just here for reference]

Endgame
Vajra Mace: 161 Atk, 48 -> 60 HP, 40 Int [breaks formula, uses 1.5*Int]
Lachesis Rule: 147 Int, 118 Int, 25 Power [unchanged - just here for reference]
Clotho's Distaff: 156 Atk, 96 Int, 48 PP [unchanged - just here for reference]

I consider this pretty much the minimum you can set the HP values to and expect them to feel good. However, I actually think you could push it a lot further. Something more like... HP = 1.8*Int. With this setting, it might look like Maces outclass other mage weapons at first glance, but that's because Maces are hybrid weapons that shift a mage toward being a warrior; the drastically lower Int means they're not really suitable for what a mage wants to accomplish. As such, it's more appropriate to compare them with other warrior weapons, and see if the health is balanced with those.

Early eastern sea
Grevious Mace: 84 Atk, 24 -> 36 HP, 20 Int
Robber's Blade: 106 Atk [unchanged - listed for comparison]

Lemuria
Thanatos Mace: 108 Atk, 31 -> 50 HP, 28 Int
Hestia Blade: 127 Atk [unchanged - listed for comparison]

Reunion
Wicked Mace: 133 Atk, 43 -> 64 HP, 36 Int
[Gaia Blade is too far behind the curve to be a suitable comparison point]

Endgame
Vajra Mace: 161 Atk, 48 -> 80 HP, 40 Int [breaks formula, uses 2*Int]
Sol Blade: 180 Atk, Earth [unchanged - listed for comparison]

With the way you have the rest of the items set up, I don't think I'd go all the way to 108 like I did before, but it can still give a pretty good chunk of health. The reason I'm so willing to risk overtuning HP amounts is because of the prevalence of healing. A character's effective HP during a boss fight is many times higher than their actual HP bar, and the same holds true of even just standard wandering, as well. Since HP is not multiplicative with itself, it actually does relatively little to a character's overall durability, and is mainly useful to prevent being one-rounded. If you can't look at an HP increase and say "yeah, that looks pretty meaty," it's probably not enough.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2017, 10:05:30 AM by leaf » Logged

Spoiler for quotes:
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O
View Profile
Baransu
Guest
« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2017, 12:44:05 PM »

Thanks again for the help, I bumped up sword and staff attack by a few points so that they'd fit the curve better. Right now i'm trying to figure out how strong the unleash modifier should be. I'm thinking that it would be about 40% and then the last few weapons would scale up to about a 2.5x (Sol Blade) multiplier while the others would be at about 2.3x at most (Darksword). Staff unleash would probably be maxed out as a 300 power spell (Dragon Fume, Call Dullahan and the Jupiter equivalent would cap at 250).
Logged
Rolina
The Fulminous Witch
Jupiter Clan

Template maker turned lurker

Alchemist
*

Coins: 3
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
I am: wondering if we can get our clan position changed...
Clan Position: Grand Overlady of Jupiter
Posts: 6051

« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2017, 09:52:41 PM »

Weapons (b): A lot of those ideas could probably be implemented with some work, but making it so they can be customized easily may be tricky.
Oh?  Hmm... perhaps if we did it modularly?  Like, select different traits for each weapon type based on what you want in your mod, then install each of them?  Could that work?

As for physical vs spell damage, was thinking that's work by basing it off whether the ability being used calls the Attack stat or Intellect/MaxPP stat (so, if Ability in [1,3,4], then Do_the_thing).  Main reason for something like that would be to have some weapons prefer warriors while some prefer mages or something - definitely an option to look at for people if they want certain weapons being more friendly to one or another.
Logged

View Profile WWW
Baransu
Guest
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2017, 01:36:17 PM »

I'm starting to consider making unleashes scale as multipliers all game long with a few exceptions like Legend and the other damage multiplier unleashes sort of like what Dark Dawn did. The added damage system is useful too but after really looking at the way that Camelot scaled them I feel like a multiplier system would be fairer for them.

For example, early on Hurricane could be an attack with a 1.3x, 1.4 or even 1.5x multiplier which would be decently powerful but since its not a consistent form of bonus damage, it would even out in comparison to say Ragnarok giving a consistent +35 added damage or a Djinni giving even more bonus damage but since they cripple your stats for using them, it would make a solid enough deterrent to make people not use them willy nilly.

Edit: Thinking it over a bit, staff/ankh unleashes should be a little behind the curve with your magic offense. That way while the unleashes still hit about as hard as your regular offense if you want to conserve PP for long dungeons or in the case of a boss fight waiting for someone to refill, the main bulk of a caster's offense is still from using their best spell. If unleashes were ahead of the curve, I feel like people would just spec their casters into unleash fishing set ups with the exception of the dedicated healer or two and it would go back to the attack command being the best source of damage overall.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 04:19:29 PM by Baransu » Logged
leaf
Potions class is starting
Venus Clan

Death Eater+Grass Snake = Snake Eater? SNAAAAAAAKE

Veteran Member
*

Coins: 11
Offline Offline

Posts: 1322

« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2017, 06:13:58 PM »

Add mods are frequently stronger than multipliers early on. Recall that damage is calculated as:

(Atk - Def)/2 * MultMod + AddMod

Thus, an AddMod of 30 is equivalent to having +60 Atk. The worth of a MultMod is dependent both on the modifier and the difference between Atk and Def. Suffice it to say that even a 2x multiplier will be weaker than a +30 AddMod until the difference between Atk and Def exceeds 60.

What's more, AddMods are beneficial in that they flatten out the damage curve between different characters; even relatively low Atk stats can make use of AddMods effectively. This is why Cannon is such a good djinni early on, and why even Sheba can do insane damage with it. Multipliers are inherently best on whoever has the highest raw Atk stat, while AddMods can be effective on anyone.
Logged

Spoiler for quotes:
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O
View Profile
Baransu
Guest
« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2017, 07:56:27 PM »

I was trying to follow a similar system to Dark Dawn which used multiplier unleashes all game except that I'd slowly scale them up to the levels of the average djinni or slightly weaker around the halfway point (Flint/Echo/Cannon for reference would all probably be about 1.8x and Quick Strike which is the spammable multiplier ability would be 1.6x).

If I'm using added damage then I think i'd probably scale the unleash damage bonus at about 40/45/50% of the weapon's base attack but the problem is picking a decent point to start using multipliers for unleashes. Staff unleashes won't be as hard since i'd just scale them based on whatever the middle of the line spells are for a particular level range for the first half and then ease up to the focused spells at the end.
Logged
leaf
Potions class is starting
Venus Clan

Death Eater+Grass Snake = Snake Eater? SNAAAAAAAKE

Veteran Member
*

Coins: 11
Offline Offline

Posts: 1322

« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2017, 11:46:33 PM »

You could always mix and match - you could design a weapon to have a strong unleash in the hands of a capable fighter by giving it a multiplier, or you could design a weapon to bring parity even to weaker party members. I'd say that generally mace and LB unleashes should be added damage for most of the game, while weapon types that are dedicated to warrior-type characters could feature more multipliers (mostly long swords; axes would have to use weaker multipliers or just do added damage to be balanced). Alternatively, if you want a mace/LB to be ahead of the curve when you obtain it, you could give it a multiplier so that warrior classes can utilize it better, giving it to a mage as a hand-me-down later. You don't have to totally switch over to one or the other at any point, either; you can have items coexist in the same space, some with multipliers and some with added damage, sometimes with a new weapon having added damage despite the previous one using a multiplier.

Also, about dark dawn: DD still had a lot of added damage unleashes afaik, it's just that since every weapon got multiple unleashes, and unleashes were shared across the game, the chances of having a multiplier were much higher.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 11:51:14 PM by leaf » Logged

Spoiler for quotes:
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O
View Profile
Baransu
Guest
« Reply #33 on: April 18, 2017, 03:36:16 AM »

My idea was that unleashes that had a chance of randomly multiplying a character's damage would be added damage where as the others would be more multiplier stuff.

I do like the idea of mixing and matching added damage vs multiplier unleashes since staves are still technically added damage unleashes under this system due to them using the intellect formula for their unleashes and other unleashes like Mad Zephyr, Legend and Rising Dragon could still be added damage in order to keep them in check. One other thing to note too is that while two weapons might have the same multiplier on their unleashes, the later weapon would still be the stronger one thanks to a higher base attack. I think ideally, Axes would probably need to resort to be added damage up until around the party merge to keep them in check, where as everything else could resort to multipliers.
Logged
leaf
Potions class is starting
Venus Clan

Death Eater+Grass Snake = Snake Eater? SNAAAAAAAKE

Veteran Member
*

Coins: 11
Offline Offline

Posts: 1322

« Reply #34 on: April 18, 2017, 05:01:28 AM »

The reason I suggest keeping maces/LBs added damage for most of the game is because mage-type characters have innately lower Atk, so they don't get as much out of multipliers. So if you give these weapons multipliers on par with the other weapons, warriors will use them fine, but they'll actually be weaker in the hands of a mage. If you give them multipliers stronger than other weapons, then warriors will just say "thanks for the new weapon" and mages will only get to use them as hand-me-downs. However, if you give them added damage on par with the damage output of warrior multipliers, it ends up being a strong option for both warriors *and* mages.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 05:04:32 AM by leaf » Logged

Spoiler for quotes:
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O
View Profile
Salanewt
His Sexiness
Global Moderator

Oh yeah, baby!

Prodigy
*

Coins: 200
Offline Offline

I am: A part of the organization of Cool Cats, but more of a dog person in reality.
Emblems: Have a nice day.
Posts: 4594

« Reply #35 on: April 18, 2017, 07:17:49 AM »

Just want to point out one minor thing (going to read through the rest of this topic later), but multi-target unleashes are also a thing if you feel they would be helpful for making unleashes more diverse.

And yeah, I would be careful with relying on multipliers; they are terrific but that isn't always a good thing.
Logged

Oh yeah baby, £ me harder.

Fusion is just a cheap tactic to make weak Adepts stronger.

Yoshi's Lighthouse is a hacking website in progress. Why not check it out if you like Yoshi or the Mario & Luigi games?
View Profile WWW
Baransu
Guest
« Reply #36 on: April 18, 2017, 12:17:54 PM »

I think I get what you're going for now. I'm just spitballing some numbers here but this what I have in mind,

Swords are supposed to be the strongest weapon type in terms of unleashes so I'll have them stick to multipliers all game and upgrade as it goes along. I think they'll start at around 1.4x-1.6x damage, then around Lemuria they'll go to 1.6x to 1.8x damage. The last few weapons would go up to a maximum of about 2.5x damage. Swords would have the highest unleash rate.

Axes on the other hand would use about 30% of the weapon's base attack as added damage since they have significantly higher base attack than swords. They'll probably ramp up around the same time as swords but will only be on the 1.4x-1.6x range due to their attack stat. The ultimate axe will probably max out at around 2x damage like in Dark Dawn. One other thing about Axes would be that they'd have a lower unleash rate than the other weapons.

Light Blades and Maces would scale at roughly 50% of a weapon's base attack and then tie swords multiplier wise during the Western Sea segment. At the endgame they'd still be roughly on par with swords but they'd lose out to thanks to having lower base attack as well as Megiddo which has the highest damage multiplier in the game.

AoE unleashes would generally be about 10-20% weaker than their counterparts while unleashes with a random chance of dealing increased damage would be added damage that caps out somewhere in the 20s-30s.
Logged
leaf
Potions class is starting
Venus Clan

Death Eater+Grass Snake = Snake Eater? SNAAAAAAAKE

Veteran Member
*

Coins: 11
Offline Offline

Posts: 1322

« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2017, 12:07:24 AM »

I suspect axe unleash rate would be fine if it was on par with the other weapons, and a 10% penalty on AOE unleashes sounds pretty light; it'll prob bounce around 20% most of the time. Other than that, it sounds like a good starting point to me. You'll probably run into some things that end up needing to be rebalanced when you realize something is too strong/too weak, but you've gotta start somewhere.

edit: Actually, for the added damage percentages, you may want to scale it up throughout the game. Axes might start at 20-25%, then scale up to 30 or 35% shortly before the multiplier switch. Maces/LBs might start at 30%, scaling up to 50% shortly before the multiplier switch. This more closely reflects how GS added damage unleashes usually scale, and keeps added damage from being too strong in the early game. In vanilla GS, base damage unleashes usually scale from 30-50% of the weapon's Atk over the course of the game.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 12:23:02 AM by leaf » Logged

Spoiler for quotes:
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O
View Profile
Baransu
Guest
« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2017, 02:04:19 AM »

Sounds fair enough to me since it'll let now I just need to work on scaling/distributing spells since staff unleashes are supposed to be based around those.

The basic idea is that spells would fall under 4 basic tiers and they'd generally hover around the same basic damage range
Tier 1: Quake, Flare, Bolt, Douse, Growth, Blast, Slash, Frost
Tier 2: Spire, Fire, Ray, Froth, Thorn, Starburst, Whirlwind, Ice
Tier 3: Gaia, Raging Heat, Plasma, Prism, Cool, Beam (I'll add a couple new spell lines to flesh out this tier)
Tier 4: Fume, Call Series (Jupiter would get a Tier 4 spell while Mercury wouldn't since it has the strongest heals).

From there I would distribute the spell lines accordingly depending on character/class theming. For example Isaac would get the Quake/Spire/Gaia lines where as Felix would get Growth/Thorn/Tier 3 Plant. With the exception of Jenna's base class, Tier 4 spells would generally be reserved for dedicated offensive spell casters as their equivalent of stuff like Planet Diver and so forth to make them stand out from the rest.

My problem however is figuring out a nice and neat way of scaling spells as well as giving them a fair enough PP cost. I remember Dragon Fume being really expensive for something that was just barely stronger than Grand Gaia and with way less range.
Logged
Salanewt
His Sexiness
Global Moderator

Oh yeah, baby!

Prodigy
*

Coins: 200
Offline Offline

I am: A part of the organization of Cool Cats, but more of a dog person in reality.
Emblems: Have a nice day.
Posts: 4594

« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2017, 04:39:37 AM »

I like the idea of having some sort of scaling curve, where greater ranges have greater costs but where the difference between each range decreases. So like, single target might be 10, three targets 14, five targets 16, seven target 17. Power would scale in a similar fashion but reversed with higher powers at lower costs. The main reason I suggest this is because of target group size limits, and on the whole enemy groups tend to average out around three or four enemies; quite often there will be little functional difference between a three and a seven target spell aside from who you select as a primary target to maximize damage output.

That being said, I don't like sticking to a strict formula whenever I try to balance power, cost, and range. And learned level. Some variation usually works well for me because different abilities will be available in different classes, while a strict formula approach works better when trying to balance abilities within a class than between them. This is my take on it at least!
Logged

Oh yeah baby, £ me harder.

Fusion is just a cheap tactic to make weak Adepts stronger.

Yoshi's Lighthouse is a hacking website in progress. Why not check it out if you like Yoshi or the Mario & Luigi games?
View Profile WWW
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Cbox
February 17, 2020, 04:54:34 AM
Fox: I guess one thing this game has going for it is the Day and Night cycle.
February 17, 2020, 04:51:46 AM
Fox: Also, I noticed since the very beginning of the game, that usually the dresser drawers (whatever you call them) have items in them.
February 17, 2020, 04:48:20 AM
Fox: (And I only recently got Karn, the fourth PC.)
February 17, 2020, 04:36:01 AM
Fox: Was playing Breath of Fire I.... and I must say.... that game's pretty bland.... listening to the same songs basically everywhere... and multiple NPCs saying the exact same thing.  Most of it plays about the same... a maze with common useless items in chests, maybe you'll get one or two fine equipment, but yeah.  ... I want to check #II again later, the game I remember playing like... over a decade ago.
February 04, 2020, 08:06:18 AM
Salanewt: We're more active on the Discord though.
February 04, 2020, 08:06:01 AM
Salanewt: Oh hey! It does, yeah.
February 02, 2020, 06:42:38 PM
Mastermind: holy crap this place still exists?
December 24, 2019, 09:33:09 PM
Fox: Even just plain Editor work can make some difference. = At least these forums are indexed on the Search engine. I was also curious about whether to um... go through all the topics on these forums and take all the important stuff out/placed into a folder for a bit of organization. Would be a bonus since if something ever happened to this forum, or if we ever wanted to start afresh again, it wouldn't be that difficult to do so.
December 24, 2019, 09:23:03 PM
Fox: One thing is for sure. This place has become completely dead. (Mostly because of Discord.)  = I don't think much will happen with this forum unless I, Salanewt, or someone else does a thing.
December 24, 2019, 09:18:05 PM
Fox: Probably not?
December 24, 2019, 06:51:08 PM
Luna_blade: I suppose this is the last Christmas of this forum? 
December 24, 2019, 06:50:51 PM
Luna_blade: Yay thanks for the coins
December 19, 2019, 04:39:45 AM
Fox: Okay, another thought... "gsmagic" could be the code name/project name... and "Golden Sun Magic" could be the more formal official name... (As in using both names.)  -  I still need to look into these other games as well... so who knows if it could be better to call it Camelot Magic if those should ever be supported to a decent standard.  Would probably be a long time from now, though. As I can be pretty lazy.
December 18, 2019, 10:01:39 PM
Foreclosure: gsmagic is fine
December 17, 2019, 05:44:32 PM
Fox: Also. I call my program "gsmagic" and not "GSMagic" =P (Not asking for correction/I being silly)... Had to call it something, so picked something short.  Maybe I should rename it to Golden Sun Magic later. *shrug*
December 17, 2019, 05:35:04 PM
Fox: (And "Golden Sun" instead of "GS" to reduce confusion that would likely not be there anyway... when "Golden Sun" doesn't take up much space to start with. (Imagine being new and thinking GS meant GameShark, or some other oddity. Ew.)) - All just thoughts...I'm still going with most of this not mattering that much, though.
December 17, 2019, 05:12:55 PM
Fox: "Misc. GS Hacking" = That name looks odd, so I'd probably just go with "Golden Sun Hacking"
December 17, 2019, 05:08:05 PM
Fox: I tempted to also suggest the Editors can go in the first category. Since the Editor is the reason this place exists in the first place. (I think.)
December 17, 2019, 04:53:19 PM
Fox: (combined = Not meant to be taken literally... but rather.... to generalize things more, since it apparently looks like we don't need the extra space no one is using.)
December 17, 2019, 04:48:49 PM
Fox: Worse still... we've only used those for Golden Sun content.... and there's not much there.
December 17, 2019, 04:45:53 PM
Fox: E.g. Maybe everything in "Assets & Discussion" could be combined with "Creative Works".... I don't feel like sound and art apply to general hacking anyway... that only comes into play when you have tools to insert them.
December 17, 2019, 04:40:26 PM
Fox: categories and/or forums
December 17, 2019, 04:36:48 PM
Fox: Everything else seems to be about right, though. Perhaps some categories could be combined(?), but doesn't really matter that much.
December 17, 2019, 04:33:03 PM
Fox: (I still think The Community section fits best at the bottom. =P)
December 15, 2019, 05:10:04 PM
Salanewt: Heya! I'm planning to get the demo up today, but if you can't wait then it's already available on the Discord.
December 15, 2019, 04:12:27 AM
Fox: (Then sell the badges on the Trade Center for a very high price... and give a lot of active people coins to buy them with, so they can basically transfer the coins to me if they want something... Gosh I could be a naughty hoarder. =P)
December 15, 2019, 04:06:19 AM
Fox: I'd buy up all the stock for each item too... but man... I think I'm too lazy for that. =P
December 15, 2019, 04:01:24 AM
Fox: There we go. That should be all of them.
December 15, 2019, 03:25:32 AM
Fox: Duplicates will still show up as separate entries on the profile as well. Interestingly enough.
December 15, 2019, 03:18:25 AM
Fox: (Well, one of each badge, at least.)

Affiliates
Temple of Kraden Golden Sunrise
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.22 seconds with 22 queries.