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Idea - Elemental Priority and Builds

Started by Rolina, 29, March, 2010, 05:55:03 AM

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Rolina

Just wing it.  You'll figure it out.

Hoopa

Instead of spark, how about renovate? It means pretty much the same as revive and means to give new energy to.
"You seek the truth but are you able to handle it? What you find may not be what you expected... and it may ruin you in the end. Knowing that, will you continue onwards in your journey? Or will you give up and return to a life of apathy? The choice is yours..."

Aile~♥

Renovate implies a location or building, and would sound just odd as a psynergy used on a person.

Charge, maybe? But "True Charge" doesn't have a sort of ring to it. I personally think "Spark" was a good idea for the name. I think it would need a buff, though, for people to use it at all.
[sprite=16, 6, 0]:P[/sprite]

Lloyd: Easy as pie.
Genis: Sweet!
Presea: ...Sweetie pie...
Zelos: Let's not start on this again...

[spoiler=epic mindscrew][/spoiler]

leaf

Like I said in the cbox, you're trying to solve an accumulated problem via several accumulated solutions, instead of just targeting one of the sources of the problem and letting it unravel itself neatly from there. There are so many things I could say about this and I'm not really sure where to start.

First off, the reason for "elemental priority" to begin with: Why? As far as I see it, this is just a way to make classes more generic while also restricting a player's options. The spells chosen should fit the concept of the class. Period. The way you have this structured, the majority of the EPAs would be focused in the two main physical characters' base elements, and the majority of healing spells would be in the two main magical characters' base elements, at which point, why even bother giving all the elements healing moves? And why don't the other elements deserve their own share of elemental physicals?

As for revival stuff...

Revive was broken in GS? Really? Have you ever thought about why revive was broken? It wasn't just broken because of its own attributes, that's for sure. It was broken because it barely cost anything in a game where you rarely had to expend PP to begin with. The only time characters expended PP with any regularity were when they were healing or when they were using Call Dullahan. Yeah, you have stat buffs that characters used, but they're pretty low-cost, too; you never had to worry about a character running out of PP because they were casting too many stat buffs. Since psynergy was so rarely used offensively, characters were free to cast revive whenever necessary, without having to worry about running out of PP.

There is also an additional cost of having to revive a character that is built in to the mechanic. Not only did one of your characters die, meaning you lose them for a minimum of one of their turns, you must now spend one of your remaining character's turns reviving them, when that character could have been doing something else more productive had the character not died, such as healing, casting a stat buff, or even attacking. Furthermore, you cannot protect a character on the turn they are revived, since barrier djinn just pass right over dead characters, and the character loses all of their stat buffs when they die, as well.

Then there's the matter of your "everyone gets a revive spell." Well, guess what? No one has a reason to use the mars or jupiter spells... ever. They may as well not even exist, since the character will just die instantly as soon as they're brought back unless they both go right in a row one after the other (or if the reviver happens to be slower than the boss's last attack and the healer is faster than the boss's first attack). Pretty much anything under 30% health is gonna get you killed in one turn regardless of what point in the game you're at, and even when the party does get access to the "true" spells, mars is already outclassed by mercury's basic spell and only ties with venus's basic spell.

Well, that ended up being more about the revival ideas than about elemental priority, but whatever. I'll probably have a lot more to say about elemental priority once I hear your arguments.
[spoiler=quotes]
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O[/spoiler]

Rolina

Why?  Simple.  If you don't know which element healing to give a class that you want to give healing, this is an idea to help you out.  It's not like it's mandatory.  This is just a suggestion for them to take to figure out what element healing to give.  You don't HAVE to follow it, but it is a nice suggestion.  For instance, in this example, the Paladin class of GS1 have learned Heal and Warm, rather than Ply and Wish.  This also gives a reason to use stuff other than just Ply, Cure, and Wish.  Honestly, the only time another healing type was used was in Jenna's base class with the Aura group.


Also, you and I seem to have very different ideas on how to approach things.  I tend to tweak both ends until I find a nice healthy place in the middle - if the nerf is too much, I fix it.  For example, I'd actually forgotten that I'd already changed the values in an updated spreadsheet (this came from an older one, I just found the new one).  I'll upload it in a bit.

Also also, do remember that these are just suggestions.  I'm not mandating anything.  And this isn't in the community hack section, either.  Meaning:  I'm not enforcing it.  We'll figure out revival when we get to it.  It could just be as you said, but then it could be like how I see it - the spell makes the djinn useless.  Weaken the spell, improve the djinn a little, and it balances the two out.

The biggest thing, though, is that I don't think that Revive should be a single spell.  Rather, it should work like the EPAs do and upgrade.  If you want a full heal like in the original, then I say have Revive heal 50% and have it upgrade at class up to True Revive, which works as the old one.

And the reason for the multiple elements?  I thought it stupid for the healer not to have a revival spell.  And even dumber for the attacker to have it.  And just plain ridiculous that the Brute line got it.  Plus, it's another instance of "having all the bases covered".  Change the values if you want - if you want mars to be the best healing element, then swap it and mercury.  You could have a Mars Healer with a revival spell on par with what I gave mercury in the example if you want.

Oh, and... if you're dying in one hit from 30% health... it may be time to level up.  You're probably under-leveled or under-equipped.  Just saying.

Aile~♥

#5
Quote from: Role on 30, March, 2010, 04:08:35 AM

The biggest thing, though, is that I don't think that Revive should be a single spell.  Rather, it should work like the EPAs do and upgrade.  If you want a full heal like in the original, then I say have Revive heal 50% and have it upgrade at class up to True Revive, which works as the old one.

And the reason for the multiple elements?  I thought it stupid for the healer not to have a revival spell.  And even dumber for the attacker to have it.  And just plain ridiculous that the Brute line got it.  Plus, it's another instance of "having all the bases covered".  Change the values if you want - if you want mars to be the best healing element, then swap it and mercury.  You could have a Mars Healer with a revival spell on par with what I gave mercury in the example if you want.

Oh, and... if you're dying in one hit from 30% health... it may be time to level up.  You're probably under-leveled or under-equipped.  Just saying.

Revive is on the fighter because it means that in order to revive you're draining your fighter's very limited PP reserves AND your fighter can't attack that turn. Putting it on the healer doesn't interrupt your strategy nearly as much, especially considering how easy it is to have multiple healers. Edit: And taking into account Barrier Djinn.

And dying at 30% means you're fighting a boss. Not that you're underleveled. I mean, the Chestbeaters could kill you at 30% health with Claw Attack, many other bosses can kill you at 40% or even (Dullahan, Doom Dragon, Valukar, Poseidon, Star Magician, Sentinel) 50% with their stronger moves.
[sprite=16, 6, 0]:P[/sprite]

Lloyd: Easy as pie.
Genis: Sweet!
Presea: ...Sweetie pie...
Zelos: Let's not start on this again...

[spoiler=epic mindscrew][/spoiler]

Rolina

#6
Quotedraining your fighter's very limited PP reserves AND
Stop - in GS2, your fighter isn't casting spells, they're spamming unleashes.  Arguably, the same is true for GS1.

If bosses are killing you that fast, it sounds like you're ill-equipped or underleveled.  I can understand maybe if the chestbeaters ganged up on one character, but...

Also:  Uberbosses are supposed to be able to do that.  Story bosses? For the most part, not so much.  Sure, maybe the final one, but by then, you've got everything upgraded.  They shouldn't be easy, granted.  But they shouldn't be able to take someone out that fast unless they've got an uber attack up their sleeve or several turns to attack.  Even then...

That's when you heal with those multiple healers you talked about.  You have to spend a turn reviving them with one character, and another healing them.  So the turn taking penalty is simply shifted then.

Also, these are just examples.  Why are you focusing on that instead of what the topic was about - the actual suggestion of element priority?

The topic doesn't say element priority and fixed revive spells.  I can't say they're fixed until I can test them, after all.  For all I know, I very well may have to boost them another ten to twenty percent.  It all depends on how things work out in the hack itself.  But for now, this is about the suggestion I made for people who didn't know what element of healing to give a class.

Besides, about the whining about it not being a full revive... that never stopped, oh, say, JUST ABOUT EVERY OTHER RPG from doing it, not to mention the revival djinn in GS itself.  To me, the revival djinn should have had a chance for Full Revive, and if it didn't then it should have just revived to the percentage.


Edit:  Just thought I should make this clear - my philosophy for balancing isn't to make the weak stuff equal to the strong stuff or to knock the strong stuff down to be the same as the weak stuff.  Rather, I try to chip away at both and meet in the middle.  You shouldn't be able to win every battle by just attacking and healing.  But you shouldn't just be able to blast everything out of the water with spells, either.  But at the same time, attacking and healing shouldn't be pointless, and spells shouldn't be worthless.  Furthermore, consistency is important.  No going off formula like they did with Pure Ply and Pure Wish, things must remain consistent in how they're done and approached.

Aile~♥

Quote from: Role on 30, March, 2010, 02:39:15 PM
Quotedraining your fighter's very limited PP reserves AND
Stop - in GS2, your fighter isn't casting spells, they're spamming unleashes.  Arguably, the same is true for GS1.

If bosses are killing you that fast, it sounds like you're ill-equipped or underleveled.  I can understand maybe if the chestbeaters ganged up on one character, but...

To me, the revival djinn should have had a chance for Full Revive, and if it didn't then it should have just revived to the percentage.

Now you're quoting the brokenness of the unleash system to defend your own arguments? Unleashes shouldn't be spammed, you said that yourself. And if unleashes can't be spammed, your fighters will be using high-level EPAs at 15-22 PP a shot.

If a boss can't do 30% health damage to a character in one turn, they suck. Sand Scorpion could hit 30 with Twin Shear at a time when you had about 100 HP. Chestbeaters could hit 15-20 when you have 50-60 HP. The Aqua Hydra has Triple Chomp, which is usually quite powerful. Avimander's Star Mine takes a good chunk out of your health. The Serpent has Black Ice to take out about 30% of your health. Poseidon... well... Typhoon Blow. Nuff said. Agatio has Meteor Blow There's at least 30% of your health gone right there from summon damage. I'd say you overleveled. Either that, or have no idea what you're talking about.

Regarding Djinn, I'd have to agree with you there. The Revival Djinn were massively underpowered.
And I wasn't complaining about not having full revive, I was complaining about the sheer uselessness of the Mars revive you posted.
[sprite=16, 6, 0]:P[/sprite]

Lloyd: Easy as pie.
Genis: Sweet!
Presea: ...Sweetie pie...
Zelos: Let's not start on this again...

[spoiler=epic mindscrew][/spoiler]

Rolina

#8
...No?  You said that the Brute line had to stop casting in order to use revive.  But in GS1/2, the Brute line's probably not gonna be casting, y'know?

@Stats:  ??? ...Gimme some time to replay TLA.  My memory just may be off, but I could swear that the sand scorpion is far enough in the game to where you had more than 100 HP...  If it is, then I'll definitely be editing the values.  But yeah, it's been a while since I played TLA, so I'll play it again, this time fighting foes at their level (thus, target level).  That should give me a better understanding.  Give me time, though.

@Mars Revive:  Well then say so.  Otherwise it looks like you're attacking the whole thing.  With revive, I gave everything, what, 10% per go?

Venus is 90% Mercury
Jupiter is 80% Mercury
Mars is 70% Mercury

Which is actually much better rates than I gave the single and area healing spells, where I think I used 15% intervals.

The thing is, I wanted to make it so that Mercury wasn't TOO strong, thus making djinn useless again (why revive to 60% with a chance of 100% when I could revive to 80% or 90% all the time?)

How I'm looking at the djinn is still just a rough idea, but... take the base percentage that they revive to.  Subtract from 100.  That's the chance for full revive.  So for the 60% revive, there's a 40% chance for full revive.

Anyways, the Mars Revive is almost 50% as is in its True form.  Also, don't forget that we'll be tweaking how other things work as well.  Monsters may not always deal 300 damage in an attack, since there's other factors at work, such as spell resist.  Plus, we may want the person to adopt a certain strategy for certain fights in some hacks.  One of those may be to have the person focus on defense every couple turns - put up a barrier, revive the fallen, heal the wounded, return to action.  Other things may call for a person to rethink their strategy and setups.  Is the Mars Revive not cutting it?  Try having that person be another class, and have another person have a stronger revive type.  Or use djinn to revive...

Aile~♥

Uh, yeah... Didn't see the edited values on Spark. 21% seems to be enough to get you back up and running with the right strategy, though some faster bosses (Moapa in my hack. God, he's a pain in the neck) could get the better of you before that.

Monsters don't hit 300, but bosses sure do!

My memory may be slightly off as well, given the fact that I made a low level hack of TLA up to Moapa. As in, you don't need to grind much at all. You can usually survive each area, though you'll probably encounter some difficulties if you don't level.
[sprite=16, 6, 0]:P[/sprite]

Lloyd: Easy as pie.
Genis: Sweet!
Presea: ...Sweetie pie...
Zelos: Let's not start on this again...

[spoiler=epic mindscrew][/spoiler]

Rolina

Oh, yeah, I had mistakenly used some old values form an old spreadsheet.  I really need to organize the stuff on my compy...  But yeah, the thing is, Mars should be the weakest of the elements at healing, being the opposite of Mercury and all.  But it shouldn't be so weak that it's less than half as strong or anything.  The strongest mars should still be more viable than the second best mercury.  At least, that's what I think.  EPAs work the opposite, Mars is the strongest, followed by Jupiter, Venus, and Mercury in strength.  At least in my hack.

Aile~♥

As for the Brute line, well, it'll be using Planetary at every opportunity, since Unleashes will have to be balanced such that they aren't spammable.

Jupiter never had strong EPAs in the original, but of course that's because there wasn't a good Jupiter fighter. Venus was the best for EPAs because it had ODYSSEY!!!

Anywho, now that we've sorted out arguments, lets get back on topic, not that I have anything to say to the topic.

Except that as for the Paladin class getting Mars healing, I actually did that. I nerfed Pure Ply to 400 HP, and Pure Wish to 320, and gave the Paladin class a Mars healing spell that was insanely powerful, but cost the user's HP to use it. On the other hand, it had no PP cost.
[sprite=16, 6, 0]:P[/sprite]

Lloyd: Easy as pie.
Genis: Sweet!
Presea: ...Sweetie pie...
Zelos: Let's not start on this again...

[spoiler=epic mindscrew][/spoiler]

Rolina

I was referencing the original version, without any balancing attached, actually.

I just made some spells for the paladin.  I mean, you can already do it now, though they'll be named "?"

Not only are they more cost effective, they don't take that much of a hit either, due to the more agreeable elemental power of the adepts who use it.

...Oh!  I just thought of something... what if a class you want to have shared uses Single Healing, Multi Healing, and Revivals, but it's a class that uses three elements, like Pure Mage?  Perhaps then what it'd need is:

Most magelike gets Revival.  Second most Magelike gets Multi healing.  Third most magelike gets single healing.

I don't think there's any instance where that happened in the original games, but hey, it's best to keep one's bases covered.

As for the topic we kept going to:  I'm working on making a different topic for that just because of the conversations that keep popping up here.

Aile~♥

Well, yes, except we're discussing balance, so referencing the unbalanced version doesn't do much except get people to think of you as a jerk. :P No offence.
[sprite=16, 6, 0]:P[/sprite]

Lloyd: Easy as pie.
Genis: Sweet!
Presea: ...Sweetie pie...
Zelos: Let's not start on this again...

[spoiler=epic mindscrew][/spoiler]

leaf

Quote from: Role on 30, March, 2010, 04:08:35 AM
Why?  Simple.  If you don't know which element healing to give a class that you want to give healing, this is an idea to help you out.  It's not like it's mandatory.  This is just a suggestion for them to take to figure out what element healing to give.  You don't HAVE to follow it, but it is a nice suggestion.  For instance, in this example, the Paladin class of GS1 have learned Heal and Warm, rather than Ply and Wish.  This also gives a reason to use stuff other than just Ply, Cure, and Wish.  Honestly, the only time another healing type was used was in Jenna's base class with the Aura group.
You mentioned in the cbox that according to what I'm saying, there would be no reason to ever use aura. This is... more or less correct, assuming you have access to both the wish and aura spells of the same level. In which case it exists for the sole purpose of having a multi-healing move in base classes. For people that don't experiment with classes, it's the best multi-healing they're going to get until mia joins the party (and then only once mia gets to lv46). The wish spells restore 60% more HP than the aura spells (except pure wish vs cool aura, which restores twice as much) assuming the same base powers of the caster(s). The best part is that due to the large number of mercury djinn in the beginning of TLA, you actually get access to wish before you get access to aura. Aura spells are useful during the windows where aura has upgraded but wish hasn't yet; if you don't have a character at lv46 by the end of the game, cool aura is actually the best healing you'll get, especially if you snag a pair of big bang gloves. Essentially, the aura spells fill the role of your older staggering system.

As such, the only reason people will use inferior healing spells is if they get them sooner than the good stuff. In which case, perhaps I was wrong to say that no one will use the weakest elemental healing. It would be more correct to say that no one will use it once something else becomes available.

I'm of the opinion that healing shouldn't have too many "steps," as otherwise it takes away from the decision of "do I spend more PP to fully heal this character when I don't need all of it or do I use the older spell to only partially heal?" Granted, in some games, that gets to be a little ridiculous ("let's go from healing 20 HP to healing 50 or 60 HP to healing 200 HP to healing all HP!"), but giving every element a useful healing spell will essentially mean that every battle you'll be giving the team a healing move that heals exactly how much they need. Worse, by giving every element healing, you make it very easy for a character to obtain a healing move, meaning that the entire team might be composed of healers, without having to steal djinn of some element from the other team.

QuoteAlso, you and I seem to have very different ideas on how to approach things.  I tend to tweak both ends until I find a nice healthy place in the middle - if the nerf is too much, I fix it.  For example, I'd actually forgotten that I'd already changed the values in an updated spreadsheet (this came from an older one, I just found the new one).  I'll upload it in a bit.
Well, now we're getting pretty far offtopic, but... I think it would be more accurate to say you tweak all sides of an issue until you get something you like. I do something very similar, but not exactly the same. Think of a group of points in space. You move all those points closer together until they wind up on top of each other. I take a pre-existing point, and move everything else on top of it. They both have their merits, and depending on the situation, I do use the former method, as well. An important thing to remember is that no matter how powerful a character is, enemies can always be made more powerful. This is why I'm rarely ever concerned with how powerful some tactic might be against a foe, only how powerful it is compared to the other available tactics. Besides, I think most people will say it's more fun to play a game where everyone is equally broken than a game where everyone is equally weak (more applicable to fighting games, but can apply to RPGs, too). Who can not enjoy doing 200-hit combos in ToS while still barely scraping up a win on mania mode? Would that be nearly as fun if you just had to trade hits all day?

As for those new values... they look much better. I could actually see them being used like this. Perhaps... too used, even. Revive and raise are both very close to each other, such that true revive isn't ever completely overshadowed by true raise, due to a limited availability of djinn. Of course, depending how good the djinn are, these psynergies may not even be all that useful at all. Especially if characters have to expend more PP in your hack than they do in the original game.

QuoteAlso also, do remember that these are just suggestions.  I'm not mandating anything.  And this isn't in the community hack section, either.  Meaning:  I'm not enforcing it.  We'll figure out revival when we get to it.  It could just be as you said, but then it could be like how I see it - the spell makes the djinn useless.  Weaken the spell, improve the djinn a little, and it balances the two out.
Yeah, I got that. I never said to not improve the djinn. The way they worked in the original GS was horrendous. They have the same chance to successfully revive a character as the percent amount of HP they revive to? Really? The DQ games pull that same BS with zing/kazing, giving zing a 50% chance to revive you to 50% health and kazing a 100% chance to revive you to 100% health, which is really just horrible game design. It made balm (60% but could revive multiple characters at once) and tinder (100%) the only useful ones. I suppose you could throw in dew (80%) for a character that doesn't carry revive or any water of life (right...), but spark (60%) and quartz (50%) were just plain horrible. Revival should be a 100% chance of success at the outset. Maybe some added effect tied to chance thrown in there, but making revival success rate and health restored on revive directly proportional to one another is terrible. It's part of what made revive stand out as being "broken," because the alternatives were so bad. If the djinn at least had a 100% success rate, they'd be worth using, since placing a djinni on standby is an offensive action. Being able to take both a defensive action and an offensive action in the same move is a very powerful thing.

QuoteThe biggest thing, though, is that I don't think that Revive should be a single spell.  Rather, it should work like the EPAs do and upgrade.  If you want a full heal like in the original, then I say have Revive heal 50% and have it upgrade at class up to True Revive, which works as the old one.
Eh... I'm fine with that. Probably would make the PP consumption more fair, anyway.

QuoteAnd the reason for the multiple elements?  I thought it stupid for the healer not to have a revival spell.  And even dumber for the attacker to have it.  And just plain ridiculous that the Brute line got it.  Plus, it's another instance of "having all the bases covered".  Change the values if you want - if you want mars to be the best healing element, then swap it and mercury.  You could have a Mars Healer with a revival spell on par with what I gave mercury in the example if you want.
Of course. But there's no reason to give every element a revive spell that only differs in how much HP they revive to (and PP cost, whatever). Rather, I'd prefer to add two priority spells, one always going first and and one always going last, each reviving to a smaller amount than the primary revive spell. Element doesn't really matter, although certainly not every element, or even three of the four need to get revival skills. The only healing move jupiter got at all was the breath djinni. Every other element got healing psynergy and at two primary methods of revival, even if most of them sucked (mercury: dew, balm, mars: spark, tinder, venus: quartz, revive). Mars sort of broke that trend by having phoenix in the beast tamer class, a 100% revival spell that only cost 10 PP (compared to revive's 15), but mars also lacks a healing djinni (besides lolember), so perhaps that balances out.

QuoteOh, and... if you're dying in one hit from 30% health... it may be time to level up.  You're probably under-leveled or under-equipped.  Just saying.
Nah. If you get knocked to the edge of yellow health (25% left), you're probably gonna die in the next hit if you don't heal. Not too far off from having 30% health, which you will probably suffer the same fate.

[spoiler=quotes]
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O[/spoiler]

Rolina

Okay, let's drop the revive discussion, since I'm working on a topic for the healing discussion, and focus on what the topic was supposed to be about - a simple suggestion for what to use for your healing spell if you can't decide which to give a class.

First - just because you get Pure Wish doesn't make the Aura series obsolete.  What if you don't have to heal that much?  If you've not taken enough damage to merit the use of the best stage, but the same-elemental stage below it won't cut it, why not use one stage down?  Furthermore, if you're just going to adopt the whole "No point in using anything but mercury" shtick, then why have multi-elemental healing, period?

Why?  Well, because it already exist.  This is simply expanding upon an existing idea in GS, giving a player many more options.  Let's say that in the setup they want, THEY DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO PLY OR WISH.  Instead, some other character is able to heal with some other element.  Does this make them stupid?  No, it shouldn't.  Just because a class receives healing spells doesn't mean that they have to be the best healing spells out there, after all.  What if your mercury adept is a fighter?  The classes in a hack are probably going to be geared towards giving them more physically oriented classes.  In that case, one of the mages will probably be getting some decent amounts of healing.  Now, for when it comes to other people's versions of, say, the Sage line, this gives them some options to do instead of just "give the class the best possible".

Could you do it?  Sure, you could.  SHOULD you do it?  Not necessarily.  Just because you could give them the best healing out there doesn't mean that you really should.

leaf

Did I say that there should only be one element for healing? No. Did I say that there's no need for every element to have healing? Yes.

There's a stark difference between those two statements. If every element has healing, then two things happen: 1) healing becomes absurdly easy to get in the early and mid games, making the distinctions between elements considerably less significant, and 2) the number of good lategame classes drop significantly, since only the strongest healing spells would be useful at that point.

The elements in GS each have very defining traits to them:
Venus: primarily offensive psys and healing psys; support is limited to haunt, curse, condemn, etc
Mars: offensive psys; defense-related support psys; healing only in very select cases (jenna's base class and beast tamer)
Jupiter: carries most support psys; strongest base damage psy in the game (besides grand gaia, which is only accessible in base classes); no healing psys
Mercury: features the best and most easily obtained healing in the game, but little in the way of offense or support

These attributes are generally continued in the djinn, with only a couple of exceptions. Mars tends to borrow from jupiter in the djinn department, with both attack and agility raising djinn, but retains its notable lack of healing. Venus borrows from mercury and mars with both defense-raising and status-healing djinn. Mercury offensive djinn tend to borrow from every element for their secondary effects (instant death, defense down, attack down, etc), and primarily borrows from jupiter for support. Each of venus, mars, and mercury feature a barrier djinni, with mars appropriately having the strongest and mercury not-so-appropriately having the second strongest. Jupiter's only healing technique in the game comes in the form of the breath djinni, and features some of the most unique support djinn in the game (coal, rime, and steam borrowing from jupiter's support diminishes this, however).

The elements do share some attributes with each other right now, but they're still well enough defined as their own separate entities. Giving every element healing just serves to blur the lines between the elements more, and takes away from what makes mercury unique. If you're giving jupiter or mars healing spells, there had better be very good reason.
[spoiler=quotes]
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O[/spoiler]

Rolina

For the most part, I agree, EXCEPT for Venus.  Unlike Mercury, which had single, area, and status recovery, Venus only had cure and revive.  It seems to have more ailments attributed to it, especially when you look into the unused data, such as Taint and Poison.

However, I think I realize why we're disagreeing here - you think I'm trying to 'balance' healing.  Or at least, that's how it's coming across.  This is a 'variability' thing, not balance.  Balance is pretty easy - fix ply and wish so that they stay on formula, and make sure any new psys are viable for when you get them and/or the target area for them.

As for those reasons, each person will have their own for when they make their hack.  Me?  My desire for adepts to only use healing of their own element in my hack (notice:  I never said the community hack).  Kari's an example - her original class and role in combat are inspired by Isaac's to a degree.

So each person should have their own reasons for doing this.  If they include all elements, they need to do it in a logical manner.  In my hack, the mars adepts are a Tank and an Ubermage, neither of which are 'well versed' in healing, nor do they have a mindset geared towards healing.  As such, when they get healing, it's gonna be noticeably weaker to those whom would be better at it.  Some people may have it where Mars has the healer, and they use my names for spells, but change the values so that it's the new ply/wish.  There's plenty of reasons, and as for what they are specifically... you'll need to talk to the hack maker.

leaf

QuoteHowever, I think I realize why we're disagreeing here - you think I'm trying to 'balance' healing.  Or at least, that's how it's coming across.  This is a 'variability' thing, not balance.  Balance is pretty easy - fix ply and wish so that they stay on formula, and make sure any new psys are viable for when you get them and/or the target area for them.
Not... quite. This is indeed a matter of variability, but we seem to have very different definitions on what is sufficiently "varied." You're blurring the lines between the elements more and more by giving them all generic spells that only vary in their strength. The elements each have their specialties. That doesn't mean some are better at some things than others. It means that some just plain shouldn't be able to do something outside of very specific cases. The aura spells are available on one character's base class. That's it. Mars having a healing spell is an exception, not the rule. Just because you can have an element do something, does not mean that you should. You can give an element anything and everything, but I think we can both agree that wouldn't be a very good idea.

As for venus not having much of a focus on healing? Yeah, all it has are revive and the cure spells, not all that other stuff. It's an inferior form of healing, yes, but... it's very widespread. It's not like jenna being the only character to get the aura line, and then only in her base class. The cure spells and revive can be found in many classes. And yes, Venus also gets all the "evil" spells, the ones inflicting death or curse. But the Earth elemental is not defined just by one type of spell or the other; it represents both death and new life (think of the life cycle from biology), hence, its spells focus both on the taking and giving of life. In the game's classes, the "death" spells appear just as frequently as the "life" spells.
[spoiler=quotes]
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O[/spoiler]

Rolina

You're also not seeing that not everyone has to adopt this.  If you don't want to do it this way, you probably don't need to, either.  Meaning - you probably already know what healing you want to give a class.  No need to go hunting for ideas.  However, those of us who do have ideas could, oh, SHARE them.  How about making a topic yourself for how to approach it if people don't know what to do?  I mean, I did make you a coder for a reason, your ideas are well thought out and have a lot of logic behind them.

So you disagree with my personal approach, that's what I've gotten of this conversation.  It still doesn't invalidate my suggestion, because it's just that - a suggestion.  I'd love for you to share yours as well.

Personally, my view is that the elements are all capable of similar things (in combat, the same things - Pure damage, Damage with an effect, EPA type attacks, Buffs, Debuffs, Ailments, and Healing), but it's how well they preform in each field that differs.  Jupiter shines in Buffs, Debuffs, and Ailments.  Venus is great with Damage, both pure and effect type.  Mars is great for damage and EPAs.  Mercury is unrivaled in healing.  So they can all do it, but some do it just plain BETTER (also: Which ailments are inflicted by what, what stats are buffed by which element, etc...)

Yours is clearly different.  So, while this suggestion goes off of my idea, I'm sure people would love to see your suggestion too.  More options, after all.