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Isaac in Super Smash Bros Brawl: How would he play?

Started by leaf, 11, December, 2009, 11:46:27 PM

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leaf

I'm assuming most of you are familiar with the smash bros series. Brawl hacking has come far enough along that we're actually able to add almost entirely new movesets to characters, and through texture and model hacking, play as almost anyone imaginable. However, that requires a group to actually put forth the effort to make that happen. I'm currently working with a group for creating a playable isaac in brawl. While we're using isaac's assist trophy model, most of the animations have to be made from scratch. This makes the sky the limit for what we can make him do, even if the process may be somewhat tedious. As we're still only starting, we need to form a direction for the character. This is where you guys come in. If you've got ideas on how you think isaac should play in brawl, then come out and say it! Should he stick with mostly sword based attacks? Or use mostly psynergy? Should he use psynergies from multiple elements, or just earth? If he uses psynergy from multiple elements, should they be restrained to just field psys? How fast should he move? How high should he jump? Should he be a combo oriented character? Or a zoning character? How good or bad should his recovery be? The questions could go on forever.

The following are my current ideas. Note they're in the mindset of making an isaac for brawl+, not the original brawl, although most of the same concepts will carry over. For those not familiar, brawl+ is essentially a faster paced brawl with a greater focus on combos and pressure (largely due to the higher hitstun and shieldstun, as well as the reduced landing lag on aerials), and a more balanced cast. A version of isaac meant to be played in a brawl without those changed mechanics will also be made. I'd appreciate it if you formulated your own ideas before reading this part, though, since I'd like to hear as many different takes on the character as possible. Also note that nothing here is set in stone.


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Physics:
Short Hop - very short (Brawl+ or Melee Falco SH)
Full Jump - just barely reaches first level Battlefield platforms
Double Jump - weaker than FJ
Momentum - fairly low, but high horizontal jump velocity
Running Speed: somewhere between Marth and Yoshi
Weight: 103 (similar to Link, who is at 104)
Floatiness: similar to Brawl Falco

Playstyle:
Consists of mostly psynergy, though some attacks do use the sword. Predominately uses psynergy from the Squire (and above), Ninja, and Samurai classes, although also uses some psys from the Dragoon class, as well as general field psys.
Plays a game heavily reliant on his range and speed. Being very mobile near the ground, this makes most of his combos horizontal in nature, and also relatively short compared to some of the more combo heavy characters.

Moveset:
Probably going to make the neutral special alternate between Flint and Venus. Flint would be his strongest attack, but also have incredible startup and endlag. Venus would only be usable on the ground.
The UpB will likely be Teleport, capable of moving Isaac a fair distance in one of 16 directions. Although if anyone has a better idea more suiting for him, I'd love to hear it.
Ragnarok will either be Forward B or FSmash.
One attack from each of the Gaia, Quake, and Spire lines will also make it somewhere into the set (probably DownB, DSmash, or DTilt for the first two, though Spire seems more appropriate as an "up" attack of some sort).
Grab will probably be the Catch psynergy, thus making it a ranged grab.
I'm thinking of using Cutting Edge for a Dash Attack and Quick Strike as a Jab (except, you know, actually make it quick).
When invincible during dodges, will also be invisible with an outline, similar to the Avoid/Cloak psynergies.

[spoiler=quotes]
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O[/spoiler]

Aile~♥

#1
I think Isaac should be a balanced sort of fighter, with a bit of an orientation towards speed. He should use sword attacks mostly for his basic moves, and only Psynergy for his special moves. for his grab, he casts Catch.

Special Moves:

B: Spire: Isaac does a diagonal strike as a spire falls on the same location. Can be charged to increase number of spires that fall, thus increasing both range, as spires fall over a broader area, and power, as the enemy gets hit with more spires. No, unlike Pikachu's Thunder, you can't hit enemies at the top of the stage with this move.

Up+B: Gaia: Isaac casts Gaia, with it centered on himself, sending stones flying upwards. Charging it increase the range greatly, and the power slightly. In the air, he does a Gaia-powered slash similar to Roy's Blazer from Melee that sends him upward.

Down+B: Quake: Isaac thrusts his sword into the ground, creating a Quake centered on himself. Works like Donkey Kong's Down+B

And...

Side+B: Ragnarok: Isaac rushes forward, similarly to Ike's Quick-draw, and releases Ragnarok right in front of him when he reaches an enemy. If he stops dashing before reaching an enemy, he doesn't release Ragnarok. Charging it increases the range of his dash and the power of Ragnarok.

Final Smash: Odyssey! Isaac releases two rings of blue energy. If they hit a target that is mostly horizontal from him, they pin the target in front of him and the target is punctured by two large swords. Then, the energy rings come back to him and Isaac rushes forward and impales the foe on the giant sword, just like in the move in GS. When you hit the target, Golden Sun battle text appears below, saying:
Isaac casts Odyssey!
[enemy] takes [randomly generated number between 500 and 1300] damage!!!
(If target is KO'd) You felled [enemy]!

I also have an idea for Jenna in Smash Bros. Her movement and basic attacks are quite speedy, and she has high jumps, but her Smashes and Special Moves are slow and powerful. She uses her hooked staff in combat.

Basic attack (A): Pressing A once causes her to hit out at the foe with bottom of her staff. Pressing A again and holding it causes her to spin her staff about, hitting anyone in range. Hitting a foe with the hook or pointed bottom of her staff deals a slashing hit that pins the target, while hitting them with closer to the middle of her staff knocks them outwards. Thus, this attack has a sort of "sweetspot" if you hit the target with the edge of the combo.

FSmash: Jenna pulls her staff back and hits out suddenly and viciously with the head of the staff. If you get a good solid hit on the target, the go flying straight horizontal with no vertical knockback, leaving them skittering across the ground. Great at the edge of the stage, as enemies keep their previous vertical momentum, which is probably DOWN.

USmash: Jenna hits out high upwards with her staff, pulling anyone above down, and into a small explosion which she releases from her left hand. The explosion sends enemies flying upwards.

DSmash: Jenna holds her hands upward almost like Sheiks USmash, and slams her hands down and to both sides, releasing a small explosion on either side of her. Sends enemies flying diagonally away from her.

Dash Attack: Jenna does her attack that she uses in GS2: She leaps forward and does a downward diagonal strike.

Special Moves:

B: Fume: Jenna casts Fume, which acts very similarly to Ness's PK Flash, except a good bit faster and it damages enemies along it's path, knocking them into it's path for another hit, until it either hits ground or you release B, at which point it explodes, probably hitting enemies that it pulled in. Hitting a foe along the entire route and into the explosion at the ground horizontal with Jenna should do about 26% damage.

Forward+B: Beam: Jenna casts Beam, sending a powerful heat beam straight horizontally in front of her. Deals about 8% damage as a base, but can be charged to do multiple hits, followed by a finishing hit with high knockback. Fully charging it deals about 30% damage.

Down+B: Impair: Jenna releases a small beam with a very short range. Doesn't do any damage, but if an opponent using their shield is in range, it renders their shield nearly broken (so nearly that if they try to use their shield again right after, it breaks immediately), and stops them from shielding. On impact with a shielding opponent, it does the familiar "shattered shield" defence nerf symbol like in the Golden Sun games.

Up+B: Flare: Jenna casts Flare with it centered on herself, damaging anyone who comes into range. Can be charged to increase damage and vertical range. Casting it without any charge does a measly 6% damage as a base. Fully charged, it does somewhere around 34% damage. I'm not sure how to work her recovery though.

Final Smash: Rising Dragon: Jenna casts Agatio's Rising Dragon, the camera zooms in on Jenna as a dragon of flame rises out of the ground. If it doesn't hit anyone after a short distance, it simply bites its mouth shut and dissipates. If it does hit a target, it carries them out of view of the camera, and then does the sequence we're all so familiar with, but with one crucial difference: As the final explosion happens, Jenna leaps up and starts whacking the target with her staff, Great Aether-style. For the finishing blow, she grabs the opponent on the hook of her staff, spins, and smashes them to the ground far below, with ALMOST final Aether slash power. Does more damage than Ike's Great Aether, but is actually less likely to KO the enemy.

Throws:

Grab (Z): Jenna whips her staff around and up, catching the person in front of her on the staff's hook by their shirt collar/their neck.

Grab Attack (hold Z/A after grab): Jenna lifts the foe off the ground on the hook of her staff, causing the hook to dig into their neck. No blood, of course. Uses the same sound effect as when Snake chokes his opponents. Does 2% damage every half second.

DThrow: Jenna uses her staff to smash the foe to the ground head-first, then stomps on their face.

FThrow: Jenna suddenly jerks her staff upwards, sending the enemy into the air slightly, then hits out with the base of her staff, sending the enemy flying. Has similar knockback to her FSmash, but the knockback isn't as good.

BThrow: Hammer Drop: Jenna whips the foe over her head and to the ground behind her, smashing their back into the ground. Doesn't have much knockback, but does good damage for a throw.

I still don't have a good idea for her UThrow.
[sprite=16, 6, 0]:P[/sprite]

Lloyd: Easy as pie.
Genis: Sweet!
Presea: ...Sweetie pie...
Zelos: Let's not start on this again...

[spoiler=epic mindscrew][/spoiler]

Insularity

I might as well say this now.

for Down B, it would make more sense to use a quake, earthquake or quake sphere, it's power and range increasing the longer it has been since it's last use, similar to Wario's Down B, or ROB's neutral B. A good timing seems to be 40s for Earthquake, and 70s for quake sphere.

I like the idea of Ragnorok as a Side B, just not in the way that Jamie proposed.

Move, quite obviously has to be in it, either as an Up B recovery, or Neutral B projectile. The Up B would kind of lift himself up, and the Neutral B would be kind of like Ivysaur's Side B, where he shoots an auto-targeting Razor Leaf, or a more powerful, slightly slower version of Pit's arrow.

Fsmash should probably be Flint, slightly stronger and slower than Link's first strike of Fsmash, with some sort of Texture of stone covering it. Just for the aesthetic appeal.

Dsmash should be a Gaia or Tremor, that works quite similarly to Lucario's. Usmash single hit, like Ike's, but faster and less powerful.

Catch makes a lot of sense to be a grab, and it should become Force or similar when used as Zair.

His range should be slightly longer that Marth's, his speed slightly slower.

Final Smash:

MEGIDDO!

If an enemy is near him, Isaac does three or four slashes with his sword like Link's. After this, or if there was no enemy near him when he began, Isaac jumps up and we see space, kind of like the background of the Ice Climber's stage... whose name escapes me, or End of Day. A Meteor comes into view, Isaac jumps onto it and slams it with his sword. The meteor slams straight into the stage where Isaac was, going straight through it.

That, or Iris, where after the four slashes, Isaac faces the player, adopting a pose like Pit's, where Pit's picture of Palutena is replaced by Iris' sprite.

And I like the idea where his moves are taken soley from utility psynergy, or from the Squire Class chain.

Oh, and do you want me to ask this at the Temple?

Awesome sig thanks to Akiko of the ToK!


Quote from: Hellfire Soul, the Temple of KradenAsians are cool. They deal with tons of stereotypes and don't afraid of anything. Alternatively, they're awesome because, well, just look at the Temple. There's four types of people here- Asian, Awesome, Asian AND awesome, or Necare.

The subcategory "Kickass" applies to the first three categories
Quote from: Cipher Phoenix, Golden SunriseBanned for being the opposite of sularity (whatever that means). xD

Salanewt

Hm... Well, if you do keep the Smash Orbs (I only like Yoshi's, really). I like the idea for UpB to be Teleport, but you should refer to it as "Escape". For his Final Smash, perhaps it could be like a random Venus summon, but it gives a slight signal before hand (only pure Venus summons, which would be Ramses, Cyleb, and Judgement (and would work in a similar way to Assist Trophies, so Ramses is the most likely to appear, followed by Cyleb, then Judgement with a rare chance of happening)). Venus is a good ability to use, along with Flint (if you can get them in). Quake, Spire, and Ragnarok should be used as a throwing combo (I think some characters have them, if not all). Grab will grab the oponent and also bring them to you (actually, Carry would be cool for this too), and then Isaac will grab the enemy when they are close enough. After doing a few hits, Isaac can throw them and maybe even throw a combo in there. Ragnarok would be a combo for side-throw, Spire will be an up-throw, and Quake would be if slamming them against the ground.

And this is my input for Isaac. The other ideas (for buttons/attacks) that I have not spoken about are not there because I think that everyone's ideas for those would be well suited.

Have a nice day.
Oh yeah baby, £ me harder.

Fusion is just a cheap tactic to make weak Adepts stronger.

Yoshi's Lighthouse is a hacking website in progress. Why not check it out if you like Yoshi or the Mario & Luigi games?

leaf

Thanks for the replies all.

Quote from: JamietheFlameUserI think Isaac should be a balanced sort of fighter, with a bit of an orientation towards speed. He should use sword attacks mostly for his basic moves, and only Psynergy for his special moves. for his grab, he casts Catch.

Special Moves:

B: Spire: Isaac does a diagonal strike as a spire falls on the same location. Can be charged to increase number of spires that fall, thus increasing both range, as spires fall over a broader area, and power, as the enemy gets hit with more spires. No, unlike Pikachu's Thunder, you can't hit enemies at the top of the stage with this move.

Up+B: Gaia: Isaac casts Gaia, with it centered on himself, sending stones flying upwards. Charging it increase the range greatly, and the power slightly. In the air, he does a Gaia-powered slash similar to Roy's Blazer from Melee that sends him upward.

Down+B: Quake: Isaac thrusts his sword into the ground, creating a Quake centered on himself. Works like Donkey Kong's Down+B

And...

Side+B: Ragnarok: Isaac rushes forward, similarly to Ike's Quick-draw, and releases Ragnarok right in front of him when he reaches an enemy. If he stops dashing before reaching an enemy, he doesn't release Ragnarok. Charging it increases the range of his dash and the power of Ragnarok.

Final Smash: Odyssey! Isaac releases two rings of blue energy. If they hit a target that is mostly horizontal from him, they pin the target in front of him and the target is punctured by two large swords. Then, the energy rings come back to him and Isaac rushes forward and impales the foe on the giant sword, just like in the move in GS. When you hit the target, Golden Sun battle text appears below, saying:
Isaac casts Odyssey!
[enemy] takes [randomly generated number between 500 and 1300] damage!!!
(If target is KO'd) You felled [enemy]!
Gaia as an upB is interesting. It might work, although I'm not sure how to tell the game "spawn this on the stage if the stage is below you, but spawn it from the death zone if it is not." From what we've seen so far, there's a requirement for "on ground" or "in air," but not "there is ground below you."

Quote from: InsularityI might as well say this now.

for Down B, it would make more sense to use a quake, earthquake or quake sphere, it's power and range increasing the longer it has been since it's last use, similar to Wario's Down B, or ROB's neutral B. A good timing seems to be 40s for Earthquake, and 70s for quake sphere.

I like the idea of Ragnorok as a Side B, just not in the way that Jamie proposed.

Move, quite obviously has to be in it, either as an Up B recovery, or Neutral B projectile. The Up B would kind of lift himself up, and the Neutral B would be kind of like Ivysaur's Side B, where he shoots an auto-targeting Razor Leaf, or a more powerful, slightly slower version of Pit's arrow.

Fsmash should probably be Flint, slightly stronger and slower than Link's first strike of Fsmash, with some sort of Texture of stone covering it. Just for the aesthetic appeal.

Dsmash should be a Gaia or Tremor, that works quite similarly to Lucario's. Usmash single hit, like Ike's, but faster and less powerful.

Catch makes a lot of sense to be a grab, and it should become Force or similar when used as Zair.

His range should be slightly longer that Marth's, his speed slightly slower.

Final Smash:

MEGIDDO!

If an enemy is near him, Isaac does three or four slashes with his sword like Link's. After this, or if there was no enemy near him when he began, Isaac jumps up and we see space, kind of like the background of the Ice Climber's stage... whose name escapes me, or End of Day. A Meteor comes into view, Isaac jumps onto it and slams it with his sword. The meteor slams straight into the stage where Isaac was, going straight through it.

That, or Iris, where after the four slashes, Isaac faces the player, adopting a pose like Pit's, where Pit's picture of Palutena is replaced by Iris' sprite.

And I like the idea where his moves are taken soley from utility psynergy, or from the Squire Class chain.

Oh, and do you want me to ask this at the Temple?
The quake idea you listed is really interesting. We're gonna need to do some research into how wario's waft or rob's laser works, because it's currently unknown. It has to be stored somewhere in the moveset file, but the tools we have available right now don't seem to reveal anything...

I agree that move really should be one of his specials. I was actually thinking of something that used windboxes, which you could control which direction the windboxes were blowing in. The move would have a maximum duration of something like 2 seconds, probably with a range of motion of 8 different directions, and could be ended early by releasing the B button. I was originally thinking it could be his downB, although if we adopt your quake idea, it'd probably be better suited for sideB, leaving fsmash as ragnarok. I don't mention neutral B because I think we're planning on keeping that as flint/venus (as in both, alternating).

I was thinking the same thing for his dsmash (gaia), although I wanted to do something a bit more fantastic for his usmash... I just have no idea what. If nothing better comes up, we'll probably go with something like that, though.

Good to see everyone more or less agrees about making catch his grab, but that's a really good idea about making it use force as a zair. I actually hadn't even thought about giving him a zair.

The final smash... well, we were planning on texture hacking his sword to look like the gaia blade, since it seemed the most appropriate thing to do. Would make megiddo kinda awkward =p

And that would be great if you asked this elsewhere. I've never heard of the temple before, actually. I assume it's a somewhat large GS forum, though?

Quote from: SalanewtHm... Well, if you do keep the Smash Orbs (I only like Yoshi's, really). I like the idea for UpB to be Teleport, but you should refer to it as "Escape". For his Final Smash, perhaps it could be like a random Venus summon, but it gives a slight signal before hand (only pure Venus summons, which would be Ramses, Cyleb, and Judgement (and would work in a similar way to Assist Trophies, so Ramses is the most likely to appear, followed by Cyleb, then Judgement with a rare chance of happening)). Venus is a good ability to use, along with Flint (if you can get them in). Quake, Spire, and Ragnarok should be used as a throwing combo (I think some characters have them, if not all). Grab will grab the oponent and also bring them to you (actually, Carry would be cool for this too), and then Isaac will grab the enemy when they are close enough. After doing a few hits, Isaac can throw them and maybe even throw a combo in there. Ragnarok would be a combo for side-throw, Spire will be an up-throw, and Quake would be if slamming them against the ground.

And this is my input for Isaac. The other ideas (for buttons/attacks) that I have not spoken about are not there because I think that everyone's ideas for those would be well suited.

Have a nice day.
If by "escape" you mean "retreat," I agree. It's all semantics, really, but retreat makes a lot more sense canonically for isaac.

We were thinking about making his FS judgment. Making it have a random chance for various summons... sounds like a lot of extra work lol

I'm a bit confused what you meant when you were talking about the throws... what I got out of that is that he should use psynergy in the throws, which is something I agree with. I think it'd be a good place for some of the field psys that wouldn't fit anywhere else, though, like lift (uthrow), carry (bthrow?), or halt (dthrow?). Actually, force would work well here, too (fthrow).

@Everyone: Thanks for contributing. You can be assured that I'm passing along all of these ideas to the others. If you have any other ideas, please feel free to share.
[spoiler=quotes]
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O[/spoiler]

Salanewt

Oh, for combos? I forget which characters have noticable combos, but it is almost like how Mewtwo could launch the spheres once he throws a person in Melee (I think Lucario can do this in Brawl? I need to play more).

Also, glad that we could help you out.

Have a nice day.
Oh yeah baby, £ me harder.

Fusion is just a cheap tactic to make weak Adepts stronger.

Yoshi's Lighthouse is a hacking website in progress. Why not check it out if you like Yoshi or the Mario & Luigi games?

leaf

Quote from: Salanewt on 13, December, 2009, 09:42:37 PM
Oh, for combos? I forget which characters have noticable combos, but it is almost like how Mewtwo could launch the spheres once he throws a person in Melee (I think Lucario can do this in Brawl? I need to play more).

Also, glad that we could help you out.

Have a nice day.
Oh... usually when people talk about combos they mean linking one move into another. That's just multiple hits within one throw, which most characters do have.
[spoiler=quotes]
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
---
[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O[/spoiler]

Salanewt

Yeah. I normally talk about combos like that too, but for the suggestion, I was talking about throwing combos (probably should have stated it more clearly though). Hm... If you just alter the topic title a bit, then we coud end up talking about oter characters in here, lol.

Also, this is a bit out of topic, but which characters do you tend to use?

Have a nice day.
Oh yeah baby, £ me harder.

Fusion is just a cheap tactic to make weak Adepts stronger.

Yoshi's Lighthouse is a hacking website in progress. Why not check it out if you like Yoshi or the Mario & Luigi games?

Aile~♥

#8
For Gaia, you simply need either "On Ground" or "In Air", because what I meant was that his UpB in the air is basically just a rock elemental version of Roy's Blazer. An upward slash with rocks and Venus energy in it.

@Salanewt: A "Throw combo" implies a combo started with a throw. And it's "Retreat", not "Escape". Role already had to tell you that once if I recall correctly.

Lift as a Uthrow could be interesting. How would Halt work though? Wouldn't it get a bit cheap? You could just freeze the enemy and then keep pounding them while they're immobile.

And actually, for a ZAir, I'd be inclined to use Move rather than Force.

Off-topic: Do you know if anyone's started hacking Tetra the pirate from Wind Waker into Brawl?
[sprite=16, 6, 0]:P[/sprite]

Lloyd: Easy as pie.
Genis: Sweet!
Presea: ...Sweetie pie...
Zelos: Let's not start on this again...

[spoiler=epic mindscrew][/spoiler]

Insularity

Here you go.

http://z9.invisionfree.com/The_Temple_of_Kraden/index.php?showtopic=9212

And "somewhat" large? It is the self-proclaimed largest Golden Sun Fansite in the world.

Awesome sig thanks to Akiko of the ToK!


Quote from: Hellfire Soul, the Temple of KradenAsians are cool. They deal with tons of stereotypes and don't afraid of anything. Alternatively, they're awesome because, well, just look at the Temple. There's four types of people here- Asian, Awesome, Asian AND awesome, or Necare.

The subcategory "Kickass" applies to the first three categories
Quote from: Cipher Phoenix, Golden SunriseBanned for being the opposite of sularity (whatever that means). xD

Salanewt

Jamie? I know. I need to play the game more anyway. Also, that is what I meant by the combos started with a throw, but I was not explaining it correctly.

Have a nice day.

Ooh! Tetra in Brawl? I have thought about that, but I am not sure which character I would reeplace (probably Olimar, but he is the least clone-like out of the characters who I would replace). Then again, I could just find a spot for her somewhere...

Oh yeah baby, £ me harder.

Fusion is just a cheap tactic to make weak Adepts stronger.

Yoshi's Lighthouse is a hacking website in progress. Why not check it out if you like Yoshi or the Mario & Luigi games?

Aile~♥

Tetra would probably be like Shiek for Toon Zelda, who would basically end up being a clone character.

How about replacing Sonic? No one plays him anyway. And besides, he breaks the game. Sonic is the reason Smash Balls were banned from tourneys.
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Lloyd: Easy as pie.
Genis: Sweet!
Presea: ...Sweetie pie...
Zelos: Let's not start on this again...

[spoiler=epic mindscrew][/spoiler]

Salanewt

Oh yeah, that is true. I would replace Sonic anyway, but my friend is sometimes good with him (emphasis on "sometimes"). I would just reduce the power of Sonic's Smash, and maybe replace Toon Link.

Have a nice day.
Oh yeah baby, £ me harder.

Fusion is just a cheap tactic to make weak Adepts stronger.

Yoshi's Lighthouse is a hacking website in progress. Why not check it out if you like Yoshi or the Mario & Luigi games?

Aile~♥

The only reason one would even HAVE Toon Zelda is to go along with Toon Link. And besides, Toon Link is awesome! He's one of my best characters! Replace Diddy Kong or Luigi! Both have broken priority that renders other players unable to hold on to a smash ball even long enough to use it immediately. Or Dragoon pieces, or anything else. And Luigi's Final Smash automatically kills anyone it hits, essentially. They say it can't work if you're airborn, but it does. It knocks characters clean out of the sky! And because of it's slowmo effect, they can't move and die off the bottom of the stage from trying to dodge it. It's especially dangerous on Delfino Plaza, Final Destination, Lylat Cruise, Battlefield, and any other small stage where you can die off the bottom. And if you don't dodge it, then Luigi can just KO you in one hit with a Fire Jump Punch. He could also just get insane combos one you while you can't hit back or escape. Forward Smash, Forward Smash, Forward Smash, Fire Jump Punch, dead. That move is INSANELY BROKEN.
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Lloyd: Easy as pie.
Genis: Sweet!
Presea: ...Sweetie pie...
Zelos: Let's not start on this again...

[spoiler=epic mindscrew][/spoiler]

Kain

Other than fan appeal, what was the point of clone characters?

Dr. Mario is a slower but stronger version of Mario.

Pichu is a faster, but self damaging copy of Pikachu.

Give Ganondorf some new moves because Captain Falcon already showed us his moves.

The Ness lookalike should go.  I just don't like him.

Falco is just meh with me because I don't really care since I don't use him.

The whole throw in every Link from every game in every form I find annoying.  Now yes, I'm a die hard Zelda fan, but spamming a bunch of the same characters with the same move sets from the same game with differently named moves is not original.

The only way to make it original is if it had a pink mohawk and a wheelchair.

I have no opinion on Luigi since he's another one I don't really use.  Sure, the Shoryuken ( _\ V > P ) is powerful and that makes Luigi a dangerous fighter, but whatever happened to figuring out ways to beat that combo?

After all, there's a deadly combo out there using Yoshi.  Jump off ledge, throw an egg, wheel kick back to the ledge, grab on.  Fall off, throw egg, wheel kick, grab ledge.  Rinse and repeat.  Surely someone's found a way to counter this one already?
You misspelled retard...oh the irony!

Salanewt

For Yoshi? Not my friend. However, I use a much different combo-set than that. I can probably throw in a few combos, and even new moves at any time (I think I even have some 3 second combos, watch out!). Hm... I should get my friend code, and post it here. From what I have heard, Yoshi has a bad reputation in the Smash Bros. series, but I have no idea why. Also, if anyone fights me, that is when you will learn of my combos. I need to train more, but my thumb hurts when I play because of the warts (luckily, they are almost gone). Also, I will probably not be able to play until I get back, since I have three more days to go before Vacation.

Thank goodness Pichu and Dr. Mario are only in Melee. It is nice that they are gone now (they would have made neat costumes though, for the original characters, or even to do something like Samus transforming). Ganondorf needs new moves. He has a taunt with hsi sword, but never uses it in Brawl. I am sure that it would be pretty good in battle. I don't use Falco either, but he is a bit more different from Fox in Brawl, which is fine with me. Lucas HAS to go! Give his PKIce to Ness as an alternate, and you are good to go. Honestly, Luigi is not that bad to fight against for me (of course, none of the people who I fight even know how to use him well). Did nobody mention Game & Watch? One of my other friends uses his Spampan, which breaks through Yoshi's shield.

Masterofdel (at Yoshi's Lighthouse) is good with Ike, Sonic, and Lucario (sometimes Pit). However, against me, he sucks with Ike and Sonic, and averages with Lucario (when we used to play with the Smash Orb, I would almost always get it first, or beat it out of him). We stopped playing with that single item (we both dislike items), but that barely helped. Also, Ike is too easy for me to fight, since I have pretty much remembered the distance/span of several of his attacks. They need to randomize characters a bit more.

And this is some more of my input. Wow, major screen twiching glitch!

Have a nice day.
Oh yeah baby, £ me harder.

Fusion is just a cheap tactic to make weak Adepts stronger.

Yoshi's Lighthouse is a hacking website in progress. Why not check it out if you like Yoshi or the Mario & Luigi games?

Aile~♥

For Brawl, Ganondorf actually feels like a different character from Captain Falcon, because 2 of his specials are different, rather than just being slower but more powerful: The Flame Choke is my favourite of his moves, and the Warlock Punch now actually has a different animation, and thus a different hit area.

I agree Toon Link should have been made different. I would have given him a different Final Smash, probably one that involves his ship from the first DS Wind Waker sequel and a lot of cannonfire. The rest of his moveset already is somewhat different, and is actually why I prefer him over regular Link. I think perhaps they should have included Minish Cap link instead. Gust Jar for grab, Cane of Pacci sideB, Remote Bombs downB, Roc's Cape jump, etc. Or they should have given Wind Waker Link some of his unique equipment, like the Deku Leaf so he can glide out of his double-jump.

Pichu's electric attacks actually do higher damage than Pikachu's electric attacks as well, and he has some crucial differences to his moveset: His USmash is actually good for something, and his DSmash isn't. Also, I think his BAir might be different? I know at least it's my favourite one of his moves.

Luckily they didn't keep Dr. Mario in Brawl.

Lucas? But I like Lucas! He has a different moveset in various ways, but not different enough, and I REALLY LIKE PK Freeze. His downB is fun too. If an enemy like Falco tries ranged attacks, they just heal you, and if they come in for close combat, all you have to do is release B, and suddenly you have the first strike advantage.

In Brawl, they increased the differences between Falco and Fox, because Falco's blaster now has much longer range than Fox's, but he can't really uses his reflector as well as he could in Melee. And, he can't Hoverfox. (Using your downB repeatedly to fall at a much slower pace due to the gravity reset.)
[sprite=16, 6, 0]:P[/sprite]

Lloyd: Easy as pie.
Genis: Sweet!
Presea: ...Sweetie pie...
Zelos: Let's not start on this again...

[spoiler=epic mindscrew][/spoiler]

Salanewt

Well, I like PK Freeze too, but too many of Lucas' attacks are the same as Ness (well, almost, with some slight differences). Also, it would have been neat for Toon Link's special to use the Wind Waker to make the winds able to carry characters in random directions, so they will die if too close to the edge.

I still wish that Isaac was usable, with maybe Jenna being the Assist Trophy (or the other way around, or both usable, considering how popular Golden Sun was for the GBA and everything, not to mention more games than Pit and Ice Climbers). I also wish that Yoshi would have more colours available (if there was a Black or White Yoshi skin, I would not be using green). I mean, Wario had so many, including a separate costume with all of these palette swaps.

In fact, more characters could have used many more costumes. For example, there could have been an Evil costume for Pit, or Shadow costume for Sonic, making him seem slightly better.

Have a nice day.

Oh yeah baby, £ me harder.

Fusion is just a cheap tactic to make weak Adepts stronger.

Yoshi's Lighthouse is a hacking website in progress. Why not check it out if you like Yoshi or the Mario & Luigi games?

leaf

Quote from: salanewtYeah. I normally talk about combos like that too, but for the suggestion, I was talking about throwing combos (probably should have stated it more clearly though). Hm... If you just alter the topic title a bit, then we coud end up talking about oter characters in here, lol.

Also, this is a bit out of topic, but which characters do you tend to use?

Have a nice day.
Well, since there's actually an isaac being made, and there isn't an... anyone else being made (right now), I'd kinda prefer for this thread to be about isaac. Although if you wanna talk about how other characters would be in brawl, no one's stopping you from making a thread. Maybe once we can import entirely new models, someone will even make one of them.

To answer your question about what characters I play...

In SSB64, I play falcon, fox, ness, pika, and kirby.
In melee, I only really play fox, but I do play some falcon on the side, and pika as a low tier.
I don't play brawl anymore, but when I did I played primarily dk, sheik, and ganon. I originally played pika, but I didn't really like him in brawl.
In brawl+, I play ganon, wolf, pika, ike, marth, falco, mario, sheik, and peach. I've also been toying with picking up yoshi, charizard, and zelda.

Lists are more or less ordered. Somehow I've ended up playing that electric rat at some point in every smash game. And yes, I play a lot of characters in brawl+. I love it because the whole cast is viable, really letting you use whoever you want.

Quote from: JamietheFlameUserFor Gaia, you simply need either "On Ground" or "In Air", because what I meant was that his UpB in the air is basically just a rock elemental version of Roy's Blazer. An upward slash with rocks and Venus energy in it.

@Salanewt: A "Throw combo" implies a combo started with a throw. And it's "Retreat", not "Escape". Role already had to tell you that once if I recall correctly.

Lift as a Uthrow could be interesting. How would Halt work though? Wouldn't it get a bit cheap? You could just freeze the enemy and then keep pounding them while they're immobile.

And actually, for a ZAir, I'd be inclined to use Move rather than Force.

Off-topic: Do you know if anyone's started hacking Tetra the pirate from Wind Waker into Brawl?
Ah, I see what you mean for gaia. Hm... two very different versions of the move depending on if it's used in the air on on the ground... we can certainly do that. It's just a matter of making the aerial version not look awkward.

For halt, what I was thinking is it would act sorta like a cross between snake's dthrow and zss's stun gun. Basically, it would freeze them in place until the very end of the throwing animation, which would then drop them on the ground. Unlike snake's dthrow, they would have the option to tech, but it would take very tight timing. Keeping it balanced is mainly just a matter of making sure isaac can't cover all your options with a single attack (and with area attacks like he'll have, it's quite possible this may happen), and making sure he can't jab reset you for a pseudo-chaingrab if you fail to tech.

And for the zair... if he gets "move" as a special, it would be sorta redundant to have it for a zair, too.

And no, there is no one currently working on a tetra.

Quote from: InsularityHere you go.

http://z9.invisionfree.com/The_Temple_of_Kraden/index.php?showtopic=9212

And "somewhat" large? It is the self-proclaimed largest Golden Sun Fansite in the world.
I see! Thank you.

Quote from: JamietheFlameUserTetra would probably be like Shiek for Toon Zelda, who would basically end up being a clone character.

How about replacing Sonic? No one plays him anyway. And besides, he breaks the game. Sonic is the reason Smash Balls were banned from tourneys.
You can replace alloys. And sonic is not the reason smash balls are banned from tourneys. Items as a whole are banned. And there are other equally or more broken FSs in the game, too, along with some pretty terribad ones...

@Everyone discussing clone characters: Uh... what? Can we please stop this pointless banter that never goes anywhere because people who dislike clones will always berate them for no reason and people who like them will also never give in to the people who dislike them? This argument will never go anywhere, so I don't get why people even insist on having it. My opinion on clone characters? It may not be the most creative thing one could have done, but it's better than not having the character at all. Especially in brawl, where the characters that were clones have been overall given a lot more differentiation. I like seeing multiple takes on the same moveset, since the characters frequently end up playing very differently (melee fox and falco or ganon and falcon are great examples of this), even if their movesets are more or less the same visually. Some people don't like that, and that's fine. They're entitled to their own opinion. I don't care if you like clones or don't like them, but please keep the discussion out of this thread. I've never seen a clone discussion go anywhere, and I've seen a lot of them, and I'd rather this thread not become a dozen pages of clone talk.
[spoiler=quotes]
[9:00:50 PM] Randel Peltier: Ok...what did I do last night?
[9:01:19 PM] Kain: Something boring, repetitive, and lasted for about sixty seconds.
---
[10:45:08 AM] Salanewt: But yeah, the elemental phalluses are being... Stroked up by Saturos and co., and the energy will go towards... Mt. Muffin, where the Golden Climax will arise.
[7:28:42 PM] Salanewt: An added bonus is that Isaac and co. were trying to stop Saturos and co. because their beliefs state that Mt. Muffin should remain a virgin.
---
[9:54:21 PM] Randel Peltier: Guess the number in my head an you get to pick what I say. Number between 1-10
[9:54:28 PM] leaf: 11
[9:54:36 PM] Randel Peltier: @#$%!
---
[8:38:13 PM] Randel Peltier: Shes like this queen up on a pedastal that I have yet to court.
[8:38:29 PM] Kain: You've tried courting her.
[8:38:43 PM] leaf: and failed spectacularly
[8:38:44 PM] Randel Peltier: Ive tried...shes the best dating game ever.
---
[12:24:35 AM] Salanewt: I need to find a picture of a naked person to put on the Christmas tree next year.
---
[2:19:06 PM] Zeadra: wait... Rief's a guy???
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[1:09:57 PM] Zeadra: well if you want to know if its a new effect or something weird, just check GS1, if side step is there maby it is the nimble dodge thing
[1:10:35 PM] Kioll: For once, you've contributed something useful.  o.O[/spoiler]

Salanewt

Stop talking about it? That is fine, since I made a new Brawl topic in the discussions section, when I noticed that this topic was in the Golden Sun section.

Replacing Alloys? I like it.

Have a nice day.

Edit: Oh, you are hacking Brawl? I have been thinking about it as well, actually. However, I am currently busy with Superstar Saga.
Oh yeah baby, £ me harder.

Fusion is just a cheap tactic to make weak Adepts stronger.

Yoshi's Lighthouse is a hacking website in progress. Why not check it out if you like Yoshi or the Mario & Luigi games?